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  #121  
Old 10-09-2013, 07:27 PM
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mithrandir (Andrew)
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What's this got to do with the NBN?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rat156 View Post
... Interest rates were 18.5%, ...
Yep. I remember those days. We'd just done $50K worth of extensions when the rates skyrocketed.
Quote:
There really isn't a lot of difference between your situation and ours, except for one huge difference, the interest rate. Housing prices have been driven up as a consequence of the lower interest rate available for mortgages, but even at $300k vs $75k you are actually heaps better off (and you end up with a $300k investment). Oh, your house is almost certainly at least double the size, if not triple the size of ours.
Melbourne must be cheaper than Sydney. $300K won't buy you a block of land, let alone a house. 19 years ago we paid $270K for a modest 4 bedroom house - admittedly on 1100 m2 - in an outer suburb.
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  #122  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:10 PM
gary
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Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
Hi Gary, I can see a fair bit of logic in your arguments, and I can see you have researched your subject well.
Thank you Larry.

I am a professional Electrical Engineer and have been a member of the Institute of
Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) for 35 years.

We've consulted to Lucent (formerly Bell Telephone) and Telstra Research Laboratories.

By the late 80's, the professional literature was overwhelmingly pointing to the
fact that future telecommunications would be predominantly digital.

My principle interests were in areas such as computing, computer architecture,
integrated circuit design and embedded computing and it was obvious by then
that unless countries started to transition their public switched telephone networks
to new digital networks that they ran the risk of falling behind economically.

Thus it was a great pity for Australia when in the period that Telstra (formerly Telecom)
had Frank Blount as CEO up to 1999, that there was no push to change the public
switched telephone network (PSTN) to an all digital system. Blount was an Engineer
himself and should have known better.

If you had raised the topic with me in after-dinner conversation back then, I
was already on the soap-box that we needed to go digital.

Ziggy Switkowski was Telstra CEO from 1998 to 2004 and also totally
missed the boat. Rather than appreciate that they better start deploying fiber,
Telstra attempted to squeeze whatever was left out of the copper switched
network.

By then I was jumping up and down on the soap-box if you were unfortunate enough
to ask.

Sol Trujillo was Telstra CEO from 2004 to 2009 and again there was no movement.
Telstra was so confident that they would be asked to build the NBN that it came
as a shock to their board when their bid was rejected because it was incomplete.

Back in December 2007, IEEE Spectrum magazine quoted an estimate attributed
to Gordon Moore, founder of Intel, that perhaps one quintillion
- that's 10 to the power of 18 - transistors are fabricated within devices annually.
Moore went onto say -
"We make more transistors per year than the number of printed
characters in all the newspapers, magazines, books, photocopies,
and computer printouts".

And that was back in 2007.

Just in the first three months of this year alone, a UK company you may never have
heard of called ARM Holdings, reported that some 2.6 billion CPU chips based
on their design were shipped.

Apple meanwhile has the largest market capitalization of any company in the
world, exceeding that of Exxon.

So computing and electronics are trillion dollar industries and that doesn't
count the enormous economies that now flow across the world's networks.

So I have not been thinking about the NBN just for the last few years.
I have been advocating a digital network for decades.

Quote:
For my part, I do not know if NBN will be a good thing in the long term, or not.
From what I read in the newspaper today, Ziggy Switkowski is being courted to take over the running of NBN Co., since it is way over budget, well behind in roll-out and the uptake by potential customers is poor. This doesn't surprise me, since goverments are historically poor at building anything efficiently or profitably.
Under Switkowski's reign Australia was set back several years by him not making the
decision to go digital.

He therefore is not the right person for the job.

Quote:
With such a poor client uptake, perhaps it is being overpriced, or perhaps some people are worried that since it is government owned, it will allow more government intrusion in their lives.
Australia is a vast country. This is not just one of those "mega projects" like you
see on TV. It is a mega mega project. The global engineering fraternity acknowledged
it as that even before it began.

The major delay was during the long negotiations with Telstra over access
to the existing trenches. That also required shareholder approval. The deal has
been struck and so it should now be quicker to lay cable.

Projects of this magnitude tend to be slower at the start as there will always
be some unknowns that are initially encountered which require innovative solutions.

When the rabbit proof fence was first being constructed in the early 1900's, the
camels would sometimes eat poisonous vegetation and become sick.
As RJ Anketell, who was an officer of the Public Works Department in West
Australia, wrote in his report of 1907 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ Anketell, 1907
When he fills himself up with poison he resigns his mission on the fence.
If he is caught in time with only a modicum of poison in him,
he waits for a dose of permanganate of potash, which the driver pours into him to the
accompaniment of many oaths, while the beast froths at the mouth and looks as sick
as only a poisoned camel can.

We used to lose a lot of camels this way until Mr Mann, the
Government Analysts, discovered that permanganate of potash was a good antidote
for the poison. Up there we have to be very careful still. The country is covered with
poison bush. We hand feed the horses, but we have to tie the camels up at night and
muzzle them by day when we are working along the fence where there is poison.
That cure is a great thing though, and lately we have not lost a beast. I have tried it in
horses, too, and it has cured every time.
In other words, Australia has the legacy of a huge land mass that can
present all sorts of obstacles to the building of infrastructure and
people learn on the job and improvise on the fly.


Quote:
Can someone tell me if a similar project has been carried out in another country?
Many, many countries have deployed FTTH either in full or in limited stages.

South Korea and Japan have very deep penetration.

The People's Republic of China is deploying fiber to the premise.

Ireland is doing the same.

Here is a list -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_t...ses_by_country

The decision to use an FTTH architecture was also partly driven by the advice
of countries that had mistakenly taken the FTTN route.

At a UK parliamentary inquiry British Telecom's (BT) former Chief Technical Officer,
Peter Cochrane, who spent most of his career there, has publicly declared that -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Cochrane
“Fibre to the cabinet is one of the biggest mistakes humanity has made. It ties a knot in the cable in terms of bandwidth and imposes huge unreliability risks … It is a shame, but I understand why people have made that decision. They have made it worldwide, by the way.

The number one fault problem with copper is water ingress. Fibre does not care about water … The fault level in an optical network goes down very low. You can reduce manning, buildings, power consumption and everything.
Article here -
http://delimiter.com.au/2012/04/30/f...ays-ex-bt-cto/

My nephew has currently relocated himself and his family to Hong Kong
where he is working for the next few years.

In April this year he wrote me -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary's nephew in Hong Kong
Did I tell you that I have fibre to my router? Not fibre to the node, not even fibre to my apartment block, but fibre all the way to my router.

I have a 300 Mbps home internet connection but could have 1 Gbps if I paid another ~AUD$30/month. For about AUD$35/month I get unlimited internet, which also provides me with IPTV (charged separately - another AUD$35/month - but simply carried over the fibre).
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  #123  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:29 PM
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Thanks for all the information, Gary. I think I have a better understanding of NBN now.
But I still feel there were other more urgent infrastructure requirements.
As I said in an early post in this thread, I find it hard to think about the NBN when it takes me 30 minutes to get from Padstow to Bankstown in morning peak traffic-and that's common to all of Sydney
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  #124  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.M View Post
I will not turn this into a fight over who had it harder, but to say that you have a 75k investment vs a 300k investment is silly. Your house value now is the number we should be comparing, unless your saying that you bought a property for 75 grand and it has not appreciated in any way.

I am not arguing that we have it good, because we do. But participating in this community it seems like some older generations would rather just tell me how easy my lazy, freeloading generation have it to make themselves feel better.
Yes, my house value now would be an appropriate measure IF I earned the same then, as you do now. The only real way to measure this is house price as a percentage of take home pay.

Back in 1987 our house price was about 5 times our combined take home pay, unless you take home less than $60k, you are actually better off.

I was about to do a comparison, but as has already been pointed out there is no relation to the NBN, so I will stop at this.

Cheers
Stuart
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  #125  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:55 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassnut View Post
This has been a very interesting thread. I wasn't keen on NBN just on the cost alone, but I must say I've changed my mind now, mainly due to Gary's missives, most impressive, thanks Gary
Thank you Fred, you are most kind.

When you think about the monumental strides in computing just in the past
few decades and try to imagine what it might be like in a couple of decades
ahead, it readily becomes apparent that you require the fattest i/o pipes possible.

It is not hard to imagine that interacting with systems across the network
that are the descendants of systems such as this one may become the norm -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI-M7O_bRNg

People will want to be able to move, mine and analyze massive amounts of
data in real time. You will want to be able to ask real questions, not just
Google for relevant documents.

Metcalfe's law, which is attributed to Robert Metcalfe, co-inventor of ethernet,
states that the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the
square of the number of connected systems.

For countries such as Australia, where 70% of our GDP comes from the service
sector, fiber to the premise makes 100% sense.
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  #126  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:58 PM
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astroron (Ron)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
Thanks for all the information, Gary. I think I have a better understanding of NBN now.
But I still feel there were other more urgent infrastructure requirements.
As I said in an early post in this thread, I find it hard to think about the NBN when it takes me 30 minutes to get from Padstow to Bankstown in morning peak traffic-and that's common to all of Sydney
In my humble opinion,the solution is not better roads but less traffic.
This can be partially achieved by people working from home.
Hence the need for better broadband.
Cheers
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  #127  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astroron View Post
In my humble opinion,the solution is not better roads but less traffic.
This can be partially achieved by people working from home.
Hence the need for better broadband.
Cheers
Actually, Ron, so much peak traffic is associated with schools. Its amazing how much traffic is reduced during school holidays
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  #128  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:46 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
Thanks for all the information, Gary. I think I have a better understanding of NBN now.
But I still feel there were other more urgent infrastructure requirements.
As I said in an early post in this thread, I find it hard to think about the NBN when it takes me 30 minutes to get from Padstow to Bankstown in morning peak traffic-and that's common to all of Sydney
Thank you Larry!

Sydney traffic is a nightmare but again to reiterate, unless you plan on building
toll roads designed to make a profit, the NBN is not somehow stealing funding from
them.

It is that important distinction between something that is tax funded and
something that is equity funded.

If you want a toll-free road, you and I have to pay for it with our taxes. We are the end
users of it. We are its consumers so to speak.

If you want an NBN connection, it is ultimately paid for by the people who use it.
If you and I don't use it, we ultimately didn't pay for it.

Now if you want a toll-free road and you want a hospital but have limited funding,
you have to make your list of priorities. That's because neither of them make
a profit and so they are paid for by taxes. If you want the NBN as well, no
problem, you can have that because its construction is paid for by the
issuing of bonds and these get paid back, plus interest, when the network
starts to make a profit.

Now, having said that, there are circumstances where a government might decide
it is wise to build a road quickly or a hospital quickly and, sometimes controversially,
they will issue bonds to do it. In fact this is what we did in WWII to fund the
war. If the interest repayments are low, it may make perfect sense for a government
to borrow to do this, but that is an entirely different topic altogether.

By the way, it is interesting to look at the price of road building in Sydney.
For example, the F3-M2 link (the F3 has just been renamed the M1 Pacific Motorway)
is a 7km tunnel and is estimated to cost $2.65 billion. It will be a toll road.
So $44 billion only buys you about 116km of modern Sydney underground roadway.

Several members of my extended family have the advantage of being employed
by companies where they can telecommunicate a few days a week.
With 4 out of 5 Australians employed in the service sector, some of them
could probably be taken off the roads as well.

If the NBN existed today, in all of my years of engineering, I would have to
think hard if there would be any reason why I or the people I worked with would
actually need to physically come into the same office. Except for Friday drinks.
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  #129  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:51 PM
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Work, school and a lot of other things will be transformed by ubiquitous high-speed communication. There simply won't be a need for being there, at least not to the degree we have it now. Virtual meetings, class rooms, GP visits and a lot of other things we can't even imagine yet will be possible, if we can muster the vision and foresight to make it happen. This isn't about faster downloads, it's about transforming pretty much everything in our lives, very much like electricity did.

Cheers
Steffen.
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  #130  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:36 PM
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I've spent the best part of 18 months telecommuting - the company's servers are in Sydney while I am in Brisbane - connection is over an IPSec VPN - it's just like being at a desk in the office.

Quote:
I find it hard to think about the NBN when it takes me 30 minutes to get from Padstow to Bankstown in morning peak traffic-and that's common to all of Sydney
Doing the same job in Sydney, before I moved to Brisbane, my daily commute was 1h 35m in each direction on public transport (there was no prospect of driving since there was no parking within cooee of the office), except if I missed a tight connection when it would add an extra 45 to 60 minutes, depending on when I got away.

The awful commute is one of the reasons why I moved to Brisbane.

Anything that gets traffic off the roads is a good thing - not just from the point of view of congestion and commute times, but also smog and greenhouse gases, cost, time saved (better spent with kids/loved ones), reduced stress, etc.

IMVHO, one of the biggest failings with the way the NBN was managed was the marketing - much of the message I recall was about home subscriber download speeds ... touted as good for movies and such. The NBN is so much more, and I think the apparent assumption that the electorate wouldn't understand the main benefits was shortsighted.
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  #131  
Old 11-09-2013, 08:58 AM
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One aspect that really needs considering when looking at the competing NBN models (Without going into the ideological debate)

The current average net connection in Australia sits at around 4Mbit/sec (Which I suspect as it is rising is already being affected by people getting on to NBN fibre, when someone can buy a service that is more than 20 times faster than average, the average will start to shift soon enough)

Most people ARE limited in some way by the available bandwidth.

Bandwidth demand I have seen figures of it growing by as much as 50% per year, take a conservative figure of 30%.

Start from 4Mbit/Sec and apply 30% annually, and if you believe the coaltions promises regards speed (I do not) and take it that 90% of the population will have 100Mbit/sec by 2019 (50 to 100Mbit per the promise actually, so a ratio of 100%, just take it for the sake of the argument that thay actually swing it and 90% get 100Mbit)

Even at 30% bandwidth demand growth, seven years (2026) after the (Very optimistic IMO) promised delivery date of the higher speeds the FTTN network is a bottleneck to the tune of people looking for 20% more capacity than it is optimistically able to deliver for an off budget "Saving" of perhaps ten billion. We will by then be looking at spending tens of billions of dollars more to go back to the model that is in place now and the "Payback" time of the equity funded model is well and truly trashed.
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  #132  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:53 PM
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GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)
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well ladies and gentlemen

i can't see the point in having a 20 story building with a lift that only goes to the 16th floor

geoff
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  #133  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:50 PM
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well ladies and gentlemen

i can't see the point in having a 20 story building with a lift that only goes to the 16th floor

geoff
The lift goes to 19.99
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  #134  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:07 PM
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GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)
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not to my way of thinking Marc

not to my way of thinking

geoff
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  #135  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:27 PM
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I saw the NBN co contractors down the road from my house.. would be nice to have fibre at home.
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  #136  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:28 PM
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not to my way of thinking Marc

not to my way of thinking

geoff
Oh it does. Believe me. There's fiber optic in the joiner box in front of my house. I know it's wired to the miller exchange 5km away because all the new development on the other side of cowpasture road already have it. When I check the rollout map though my neck of the wood is not even scheduled and 'work' hasn't even started. It's like I'm being surrounded but in a black spot. Weird...
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  #137  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:34 PM
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i have a friend being connected next week at east gosford
three houses on the other side of the road to him - first one, fibre to the front - 2nd one, nothing - 3rd one, fibre to the front

completely missed one house?

geoff
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  #138  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:38 PM
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I know of a residential roll out in coffs harbour that stops 100 metres from a small Maternity Hospital ? go figure

geoff
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  #139  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
Oh it does. Believe me. There's fiber optic in the joiner box in front of my house. I know it's wired to the miller exchange 5km away because all the new development on the other side of cowpasture road already have it. When I check the rollout map though my neck of the wood is not even scheduled and 'work' hasn't even started. It's like I'm being surrounded but in a black spot. Weird...
What colour is the fibre?
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