Relativity Question

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

I see & understand that strict scientic principals are abided by to ensure good scientific debate , strict ethical guidelines here are lacking.

Hi Phil;
Good to have your input.
We tried to get some principles in place a while ago … until someone formalises something, all we can do, is what we can do, as the need arises.
Overall, I agree with where you're coming from.

Cheers

[CraigS]

Frankly, I see several categories of discussion running simultaneously which adds to the confusion:
i) Questions/answers to 'bread & butter' mainstream science;
ii) Research update discussions on mainstream topics;
iii) Proving ground discussions for those wishing to develop their 'ideas' (non mainstream).

Love to see 'em separated !

Cheers

[sally1jack (Phil)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Hi Phil;
Good to have your input.
We tried to get some principles in place a while ago … until someone formalises something, all we can do, is what we can do, as the need arises.
Overall, I agree with where you're coming from.

Cheers

Hi Craig, i disagree this is a matter of respect , if a contributor shows disrespect to an individual or the principal at hand then we shouldn't get down in the mud a play dirty as well .
If people started reading some of these threads i don't think that they would think to themselves that this is a quality ethical site for science, we don't need guidelines we need ethics & manners or this forum will continue to deteriate like other forums have which is a joke. we are all adults here lets share knowledge& respect each other.
Craig As one of the regular contributors i feel that you have an obligation to conduct debate in the proper manner, don't feel like i am singling you out as i think that you do this better than most,
this should be about science not emotion
ive had my say & i'll go back under my rock

Phil

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

seem's to be degrading again , the behavior is very similar to my children, so disappointing to see this happening.
Carl ( renormmalise) i read in one of your post a while ago that when people behave in this way you just don't reply, what happened to that ? not that i disagree with you i think you explained your point & i understood it.
if this is the way the wider scientific comminity debate things then progress will be at a snails pace
there are a group of regular contributors with a good knowledge base which i enjoy reading & have learned from them which i appreciate. but what disturbs me is when a contributor ruffles there feathers they gang up & attack this is not to say that there scientific point of view was wrong, but its the way it is done
To have superior knowledge or intelligence gives know one the right to belittle someone or name call like "troll"
I think the moderators should be firmer on personal attacks which both sides are firmly guilty of
I see & understand that strict scientic principals are abided by to ensure good scientific debate , strict ethical guidelines here are lacking.
I see fewer & fewer people contributing i believe that this behavior can't be helping this

hope this improves

I give people a number of chances. If after that, they are still carrying on like numpkins, I just don't bother anymore. Which is what I've told this person in particular. He's not getting another answer off me and I don't particularly care what he asks in the future. He's on his own.

Fewer and fewer people contribute because of idiots that come on and try to disrupt everything for everyone. They're not here to find out anything, they're just here to troll for trouble or to hear themselves talk. If it wasn't for proper decorum and the rules of the forum, I'd be telling them to bugger off in no uncertain terms. Anyone who carried on like that in any talk or lecture I've ever given would've been shown the door very smartly. Most of them have chips on their shoulders and are not willing to listen whatsoever to anything anyone says. They don't want to learn or understand, so they just keep carrying on until something gives.

I also think that before you, or anyone else chips in with an opinion on this matter, you take a good look at what's going on. I would imagine that if after repeating yourselves several times with no obvious progress and then being berated by the person in question and having your explanations disregarded flippantly, you be a little more than peeved or defensive. Quite frankly, if Steven, myself or anyone else here is going to be treated like this for too much longer, we just won't bother with even posting in this section at all. Why should we go out of our way to explain things to anyone, only to have our explanations thrown back in our faces and told we don't know what we're on about...which is what has happened in this case and others, in the past.

I'm glad that you and many others appreciate what we have to contribute to this forum, I'm happy to give of what I know. But, I can tell you now that if the sort of nonsense that has happened in this case and others keeps up, I will just walk away from it and not even bother. I'm getting a little sick and tired of putting up with fools who just come in here and want to disrupt the good nature of this forum and cause confrontation or just won't listen to anything anyone says. If they're that knowledgeable to begin with, why even bother asking the questions they do...let's hear what they have to say. They should be teaching/explaining things to us, not the other way around. Quite frankly, they're full of it and I'm not putting up with it. I doubt any of the others are, either.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

Hi Craig, i disagree this is a matter of respect , if a contributor shows disrespect to an individual or the principal at hand then we shouldn't get down in the mud a play dirty as well .
If people started reading some of these threads i don't think that they would think to themselves that this is a quality ethical site for science, we don't need guidelines we need ethics & manners or this forum will continue to deteriate like other forums have which is a joke. we are all adults here lets share knowledge& respect each other.
Craig As one of the regular contributors i feel that you have an obligation to conduct debate in the proper manner, don't feel like i am singling you out as i think that you do this better than most,
this should be about science not emotion
ive had my say & i'll go back under my rock

Phil

Make some constructive suggestions for how to structure future conversations Phil.
The issue I see in this one, is that we have two entirely different levels of science conversation .. the one I started and, the one Archy is attempting to promote. There'd be no angst if that was recognised. (Some recognition of that by Archy would help).

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

if this is the way the wider scientific comminity debate things then progress will be at a snails pace

Phil, normally the wider scientific community has debates which are well conducted and for the most part the participants respect one another.

However, don't ever think that really heated debates and even all out barneys don't occur. Even in debates where things are generally done in a respectful and proper manner (for the most part) there can be some rather heated situations.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Make some constructive suggestions for how to structure future conversations Phil.
The issue I see in this one, is that we have two entirely different levels of science conversation .. the one I started and, the one Archy is attempting to promote. There'd be no angst if that was recognised. (Some recognition of that by Archy would help).

Cheers

The ToS gives those outlines as best as it can. And the heading of this forum gives a generalised outline as to what should or shouldn't be in here.

It's not so much different levels of conversation as it's to do with giving of the proper respect to those who do contribute to this forum and who have the knowledge to make meaningful contributions without them, or the people asking questions they want answered, being disrupted and castigated by people who have no intention of either learning off anyone who makes a contribution or is just out to stir up discord amongst the forum members.

[sjastro]

Looking at this thread is only a snapshot of an issue that goes back 2-3 years.
"Not playing in the mud" has failed miserably in the past. In fact I have no doubts it has encouraged the individual to carry on the way he has.

Using the Science forum to engage in gutter level personal attacks against individuals simply because he resents a display of knowledge is the issue here.

I think a lot worse terms than troll.

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

The ToS gives those outlines as best as it can.

Not good enough for rigorous Science forum discussions, in my view.

This forum will be forever doomed !

Cheers

[sally1jack (Phil)]

Look Carl im not having a go at you . i am grateful for your & other imput & would be sorry if you stopped contributing,
you can't & won't stop people from being how they are , i believe if ther is a sensible debate performed correctly then the idiots will fade away & even if they dont who cares, people will listen & believe what they want
but when we start to degrade the debate then we can't complain
You contribute here for a reason & thats your reason , to stop because someone is aggrivating you is a llitle selfish if you have great knowledge then you should share it because someone taught you & if they took the same line then knowledge would stop being learnt by all
Don't take this personally carl as i don't know you & am not judging you but i think we need to be above all this crap & continue to debate reguardless of the disrupters
hope you continue
phil

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Not good enough for rigorous Science forum discussions, in my view.

This forum will be forever doomed !

Cheers

Craig, this forum is not a formal debating society. Nor is it a open ended scientific conference. If you try and impose those sorts of rules on this forum, you'll lose the whole character of the forum and people will just not bother to post here.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

to stop because someone is aggrivating you is a llitle selfish if you have great knowledge then you should share it because someone taught you & if they took the same line then knowledge would stop being learnt by all

Man, this perception really bugs me … its kind of a latent assumption !

Unless I'm mistaken, no-one here is under ANY obligations to share anything !

The 'lurkers' here are doing exactly this (ie: NOT sharing) .. and when the going gets tough, somehow contributors are held accountable to them ???

What poppycock !

If someone wants to walk .. then that's their decision … and theirs alone !

Cheers

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Craig, this forum is not a formal debating society. Nor is it a open ended scientific conference. If you try and impose those sorts of rules on this forum, you'll lose the whole character of the forum and people will just not bother to post here.

That's happening anyway, Carl.

It can't get much worse !

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

Look Carl im not having a go at you . i am grateful for your & other imput & would be sorry if you stopped contributing,
you can't & won't stop people from being how they are , i believe if ther is a sensible debate performed correctly then the idiots will fade away & even if they dont who cares, people will listen & believe what they want
but when we start to degrade the debate then we can't complain
You contribute here for a reason & thats your reason , to stop because someone is aggrivating you is a llitle selfish if you have great knowledge then you should share it because someone taught you & if they took the same line then knowledge would stop being learnt by all
Don't take this personally carl as i don't know you & am not judging you but i think we need to be above all this crap & continue to debate reguardless of the disrupters
hope you continue
phil

I know you're not having a go at me, per se. This forum is normally conducted rather well and everyone gets along just fine. However, just because you conduct something in a proper manner doesn't mean that those wanting to disrupt everything are going to just fade away. They will keep coming along regardless of whatever you do.

Why should I, or anyone else have to put up with being aggravated or repeatedly told we don't know what we're on about, or questioned for no good reason by people who it's plainly obvious are only here to stir up trouble or just want to act like ignoramuses. After awhile, you get sick of it. If it keeps up, you just remove yourself from the scene and stop posting....there's nothing selfish in that at all. I've done it before on a number of occasions, especially since I had rather more important things to do than waste my time arguing with fools who didn't want to listen. All you do with these people, after a fair number of tries, is just waste your breath and effort even bothering to reply to them.

If I had've carried on like some here have at any of my classes at uni, I'd have eventually been booted out the courses I took. That would be guaranteed.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

That's happening anyway, Carl.

It can't get much worse !

Got a point there

[sally1jack (Phil)]

craig i didn't say that anyone here is under obligation to share anything, if you dont want to thats fine , but you guys do & all i was saying is to stop because someone is having a go at you is not a good reason to stop
phil

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

craig i didn't say that anyone here is under obligation to share anything, if you dont want to thats fine , but you guys do & all i was saying is to stop because someone is having a go at you is not a good reason to stop
phil

What would you do if someone kept getting in your face and being confrontational. I'd hazard a guess you'd either walk away from it or push back (until you had enough and then walked away, anyway). If they pushed you far enough, it might even come to blows.

Phil, let this present conversation lie, OK. It's only going to cause more discord and it's so far off topic anyway, it's become a farce.

I'm not here to argue the finer points of my own actions and what I do is entirely up to me. Same for anyone else. Let this be the end of the matter and move on. I've had enough of arguing about semantics for one day.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sally1jack

craig i didn't say that anyone here is under obligation to share anything, if you dont want to thats fine , but you guys do & all i was saying is to stop because someone is having a go at you is not a good reason to stop
phil

Yeah fair enough Phil, but I really don't think onlookers appreciate how much emotional effort is required to uphold a rigorous, unintuitive line of argument in these debates.

This was my point here.

I refuse to held accountable to onlookers who jump in when the going gets tough with their low-value opinions, on what they see. If these types wish to be acknowledged, then let them get involved in the debate and experience what there is to be experienced .. this is the only way they'll ever earn my respect.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Yeah fair enough Phil, but I really don't think onlookers appreciate how much emotional effort is required to uphold a rigorous, unintuitive line of argument in these debates.

This was my point here.

I refuse to held accountable to onlookers who jump in when the going gets tough with their low-value opinions, on what they see. If these types wish to be acknowledged, then let them get involved in the debate and experience what there is to be experienced .. this is the only way they'll ever earn my respect.

Cheers

Precisely, Craig.

It takes a lot out of you when you go on with constructing arguments and counterpoints to debates. All that thinking burns up the calories!!!! Especially when everything is coming from first principles, straight from the top of your head and from your own learning/experience. Even trying to find references can get tiresome, especially if you're having to back things up on the fly, which is damn near impossible unless you've looked into the topic in question before you or others have posted it.

And if you're anything like me, you'll have journal articles and such scattered everywhere and in all sorts of files!!!!

[CraigS]

Once we surmount all this noise, I have been patiently waiting to extend my initial discussion, so that we can venture into a discussion on the closely related, special relativity time dilation due to aberration topic.

Until we get over Archy's issues though, this seems futile.

Cheers