Osama Bin Laden dead

[Kal (Andrew)]

No institute is perfect. Even institutions with the purest of moral intentions such as the roman catholic church are riddled with dark periods such as the crusades or pedophile priests.

If anyone thinks a utopian government is a realistic ideology then they are sadly mistaken.

[netwolf]

The greatest decit is that evil is dead. But it is always there, denyin that only gives it more power. Greed, selfishness, envy, what ever form it takes it is there in all of us.
Mirror miror on the wall, who is the most evil of them all....
Even though Hitler, Sadam, Osama, are dead there is always an answer to the above. Will there ever be a time when there is no answer to the above?

Freedom is first and last an awareness in oneself. Within the walls of his prison Nelson Mandella still held to this idea, I am free in my mind. Until you are free in your self there can be no external freedom.

Only the selfless know what it is to be free, and that quality seems rare these days.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Freedom being the first.

Freedom to or freedom from ?
Freedom is a two-blade sword, mate.. cuts both ways sometimes..
I agree with Brian on his note about responsibilities - they come with freedom in the same package.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Freedom to or freedom from ?

It think it goes hand in hands with who's got the bigger stick. Let's see. Hypothetically, take the US out of the equation. What would happen to the world's balance? I'm talking about economy and technology as well. What would be the immediate consequence to Australia. (reminder: population 20 millions - massive reserve of underground raw resources)

[bojan]

Originally Posted by multiweb

... Hypothetically, take the US out of the equation. What would happen to the world's balance? I'm talking about economy and technology as well. What would be the immediate consequence to Australia. (reminder: population 20 millions - massive reserve of underground raw resources)

But I can't do this of course.
But, let me ask you what would happen if we take out China from equation? Or Japan as it was 20 years ago?

The keyboards we are typing our little chat on would be costing $100 instead of $5.
So most likely we wouldn't be doing it (at least not me, I know I wouldn't be able to afford it, not at home that is)

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bojan

But I can't do this of course.
But, let me ask you what would happen if we take out China from equation?

The keyboards we are typing our little chat on would be costing $100 instead of $5.
So most likely we would be doing it (at least me, I know I wouldn't be able to afford it, not at home that is)

Production costs would have to come down again or people would have to pay more money but in the end it would balance out. It's called business. Free enterprise. Without any violence or wars.

[iceman (Mike)]

Guys you're going a bit off-topic.

[netwolf]

Marc,

No violence and no Wars? the American economy will colapse

[bojan]

Not necessarily.. Production cost went down ONLY because of places like Japan, Mexico, India, China.. where expenses for labour are (were) negligible.

When those economies and living standards come in line with the western level, the cost will go higher (like it happened in Japan).

And I am not entirely sure there will be no wars in this future situations - someone must be poor and desperate to work for less, otherwise the western economy (based on doctrine "greed is good") is stalling..

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by netwolf

Marc,

No violence and no Wars? the American economy will colapse

Don't you worry about their defence budget. It's insane and would make NASA look cheap.

Originally Posted by iceman

Guys you're going a bit off-topic.

Yeah you're right sorry Mike. Back to Osama.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by iceman

Guys you're going a bit off-topic.

Yep...

Sorry

[Brian W (Brian)]

This quote is definitely on topic;

We killed bin Laden and all it took was three wars, a million deaths, a trillion dollars, and infinite broken families and broken hearts.

May it never be necessary again.
Brian

[Paul Haese]

This entire event has me perplexed.

Why is it that the US and its allies can murder and destroy countless countries in the pursuit of their freedoms? Why would a country with a aggressive foreign policy and an intelligence agency that has a knack for causing untold trouble think that no one is going to eventually attack them? Why is it that 3000 odd people killed in the 9/11 attacks are any more valuable than the thousands of people murdered in any war the US decides to embark upon. Think of Loas and Iraq (the second time around) here? Remember we are technically war criminals for waging aggressive war with a pre-emptive strike against Iraq under the UN conventions; but apparently that is ok for us but not for other countries to undertake). They trained him and his followers so that they could get even with the Russians during the cold war and then deserted them when Russia pulled out of Afghanistan. What did the US really expect?

This will not stop these freedom fighters (AKA terrorists to the western world) from continuing their reprisals. These people are fundamentalists. This is almost a carbon copy of the IRA in Ireland. The branch of Muslims that these people come from are not going to disappear soon. They will now just ramp up their activities and attack harder and harder targets.

I personally found it disgusting and stupid to see US citizens celebrating this event. Are reporters that stupid? I don't see Bin Laden as evil or otherwise. He is a product of the circumstances in which he was placed. Why is it that we have not evolved to get past this rubbish? A Martyr he is and now I fear the real trouble will start.

[Brian W (Brian)]

Paul, to answer some of your questions;

The U.S. and allies do it because they believe it is needed and they have the military muscle to do it.

It came as such a shock because except for the war of 1812 and a few Japanese subs and balloons and maybe a German sub or two no one had ever taken the fight to America and part of the cultural Myth was that they were invulnerable in the homeland.

Brian

[bojan]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Are reporters that stupid?

No they are not.. they are just serving the wider community with the type of news and the way the community wants to see/hear that news

[Octane (Humayun)]

Agreed with everything you said, Paul.

He was friends with the US, much like Saddam, when it suited them.

H

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Obviously this operation raises some serious moral dillemas. Extrajudicial killings by one country in another country which has not been informed about the operation tend to do that. Now we find that some of the inteligence used to track him down was obtained by torture (specifically waterboarding). Another can of worms opened and ready to be chewed.

[Brian W (Brian)]

Actually before one gets to the moral dilemmas of this particular action one just might want to question the doctrine of 'justifiable or moral war'

Brian

[Logieberra (Logan)]

I'm just wondering if the firefight & capture will be featured in the next Call of Duty... sweeeeeet!

[scagman (John)]

I'm surpriesed that the Taliban haven't released a pre-recorded doctored video show Bin Laden still alive holding todays paper or something to counter the US's claims that he was killed.

John