An incnvenient truth - a global warning

[xelasnave]

Well I hope to put my money where my mouth is..In Sydney I am going to go solar and disconnect from the grid.. not to save the planet but to save bucks.. I figure if I can live in the bush with two panels maybe I can do similar in town.. even working on a water generator for the pool drains from ig pools uphill.. so far it looks as though I will save money and saving money is what "they" try to do eh?
I just think that feeling guilt for something we may well be responsible for it ok but to think we can change behaviour never..so lets not get hooked on another short term solution.. non renewable fuel is going nowhere..its that simple so lets research how to get the most out of renewables..not easy but nor is preventing a histoic climate change.
alex

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by merlin8r

Frankly, YES. To suggest any less is to say "my vote doesn't count". How do we get CO2 levels back down? Easy! Once we stop pumping more than the trees can process into oxygen, the CO2 levels will drop. It really is that simple. It's happened before. .

But but the trees crate methane, an even more potent greenhouse gas than CO2!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...1/s1545977.htm

Originally Posted by merlin8r

Either way, the Earth will look after itself. Once the carbon gets too high, an ice age is triggered. And they happen quickly. Like ten years quick. You might be prepared to sit on your hands and do nothing because it is too hard, but I am not.

Not sure I follow - what is it that causes ice ages? You must know something no-one else does.

[Tiroch]

Argonavis


Please look at my post No. 96. Best I know the main cause of an Ice Age is the change in Earth axis tilt.

[Tiroch]

As well, and to use Alex's phrase Historic Climate Change (HCC), there was an HCC that started about 40 million years ago and that was the first Ice Age.

Earth scientists have studied this and have concluded these started as a result of the collision of the tectonic plate on which India floats with the plate on which southern Asia floats resulting in the creation of the Himalaya mountains. This upthrust of land very high into the atmosphere altered air circulation patterns.

BTW this pertains to my last previous post about tilt. Not sure if I posted this earlier so 'repeat' it:

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofn...arth_tilt.html

[Ric]

Hi Tiroch, some scientists believe that the Himalayas are a major factor in the current ice age of which we have been in recession from for around 10,000 years, but it is still an unproven hypothesis as the geologic record dating back to Tethyan sediments do not match with known ice age periods.
The Himalayas' formation started about 70 million years ago with the Indo Australian plate colliding with the Eurasion plate. In fact we are still moving north but the Eurasion plate is now stretching causing the Himalayan chain to in fact decrease in height.
There is more evidence to suggest that the movement of the plates themselves are altering the flow of warmer water to the north and south areas which in turn would cause larger ice sheets and reflect the warmth away from the Earth.
With the increase of CO2 levels the opposite is fact happening regardless of tectonic movement.

[Tiroch]

Hi Ric,

Thanks for the reply. My reference to 40 million years ago is related to when the mountain building had completed (never completed of course as yes these are still uplifting but very slowly).

As to any relation to current GW this is not a factor. It is considered the cause of Ice Ages as there were none before this Earth movement action.

[xelasnave]

Let us assume (unwisely) that historic climate change is being moved faster because of human activity ... say all the problems will go away if humans can remove their foot print from the problem. I ask being realistic does anyone think that humans can get together on a world wide political forum and do anything meaningful such that humans can reduce their contribution . Whilst people love to fly, love to eat, love to drive, love to consume, love to waste recourses and love to leave it to the other guy ...I ask simply “can there be any change in behavior?”... oh we will get wonderful people coming to seminars to have their “world saving say" only to drive to the air port in their big petrol car to fly off to another seminar in their big fuel wasting air polluting jet. Vested interests see the opening and produce their cures but really what will change?...nothing as far as human behavior...but the climate will still change ..it has happened in the past (hence historic climate change) without humans there to stop it ... does anyone seriously think humans will pull back current outputs to a pre industrial revolution output. If you believe that then of course you will believe the various sales presentations that "out product will save the world". I like the way people say well "if there is a chance that humans cause it we better do something" as if we can lay a side bet on the outcome. What a cop out! I am not sure so I will go with the others…. Wimpish.. take an informed stand . I say we can’t do anything to prevent it who says we can?? Who seriously says we can do anything to change human behavior? Take your stand now or get out of the way . Any cash or energy wasted in an effort to stop it uses more energy and adds to the problem they try to solve. However all dark clouds have a silver lining . Electric cars are getting welcome public attention . Some folk are starting to realize that by saving energy, around the house and in their personal worlds translate into real savings in the dollars they spend on energy .. mmm sellers did not allow for this annoying development .
What I don’t like is to see kids fearful of a future they feel their parents have ruined for them .. That is nasty and cruel. Study marketing and you will realize such is no accident . Nasty to have parents feel that by accepting nuclear they make a better future for their kids when of course they only pay profit to those responsible for the fear campaign… Without global warming to drive the mob who will accept nuclear power? I heard the numbers show 80% of the population is in not in favor … oh is that all? Guess we need some more sky is falling so they won’t even whimper .. I don’t like to see the West happy to over indulge until it is now the less developed nations that line up at the table for their share only to be told..You can’t have it you will cause too much pollution. How hypocritical, how human, how sad.
The only relevance to the question “have humans caused the problem” is to introduce the notion humans can fix it… fix it with nuclear power it seems.. well seriously..if the problem is so bad does anyone think nuclear will solve it? You will find yourself believing that we can .. because over the past six months you have been pumped with mind bending matter so that’s exactly what you will think … I feel so sad that few people realize that they have been manipulated, and worse the way their children have been manipulated and are not outraged that their kids have been tampered with .
I object to seeing a cartoon series making nuclear energy seem ok by having an idiot placed as safety control officer (subtle, cruel and nasty) …mmm nuclear must be so safe that they only need an idiot like Homer to look after it ..nuclear must be so safe there is nothing to worry about if he can manage it… let’s face it there have been episodes where Homer alone saves an “accident”.. pity the cartoon does not go on to show the horrors of an “accident” .. The reference to three eyed fish gets too little airing perhaps .
Look at the row in politics now.. who talked to whom? You can’t talk to an ex con ! What does serving time not fix it ? The righteous approach is sickening given the deals that are now being done under the falling sky. Well let’s get the public attention on raw politics so we can get down to doing some business with the desalinator people and the nuclear power plant people. Focus people! focus on how you are being conned. Remember the Y2 k bug and all the others that cost you worry and dollars. Don’t waste time arguing causes argue about the solutions…long term .. Intellectually challenging and worthwhile for the future of the country..Our kids .
alex

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Very good Alex, congratulation on your last post. As former salesmen you can see the sales pitch in this hysteria about global GW.
I must say I have not seen such a clever propaganda and brain washing fed to population of industrialised countries since I left my former communist dictatorship country many years ago. Pictures of the Opera House slowly sinking to the Harbour, as seen on TV are examples on it. Last night programme on Ch 10 another. GW is becoming a religion.
Alex asks right question - who is going to benefit form this. But he sees the answers only on corporate and industry level. Ask yourself question- which countries are going to benefit if the West is going to weaken itself economically by fighting GW?
As for energy savings. Guess what is going to happen if every household in Australia is going to cut energy consummation by 20%? Energy prices will go up by 30%.

[casstony]

To act according to your conscience is to have integrity.

To be unsure of your opinion is to have wisdom.

[Tiroch]

With age comes wisdom and to be unsure is to be aware that you may not be correct and that is also wisdom.

And to Karls48 I say China stands and waits to take us western types out once we have bankrupted our societies fighting an impossible 'war'. We can throw India into that as well but China is it.

And yeah also Russia.

None of whom have signed the idiocy of Kyoto.

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Karls48

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]....... Last night programme on Ch 10 another. GW is becoming a religion....

Actually, that program, like all commercial TV, is about making money. It was sponsored by the advertisers to make more money.


What next? Buy your carbon offsets here....



http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...ets-usat_x.htm

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Tiroch

Argonavis


Please look at my post No. 96. Best I know the main cause of an Ice Age is the change in Earth axis tilt.

No doubt you are referring to the Milankovitch cycles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

I am not sure that these have any scientific consensus as yet. I suspect that our scientific industrial culture will need to be around for a few hundred thousand years to properly observe and collect data to validate them.

[Tiroch]

A bit here on carbon offsets and trees:

Here's some examples.
"Green" celebrities often claim to reduce their carbon imprint to zero when flying around the world by buying "carbon offsets". One popular way of doing this is by planting trees.
Let's do the math. It takes 15 trees 40 to 50 years to absorb five tons of carbon.

A return flight from Toronto to Vancouver injects 5.4 tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere per passenger. Carbon dioxide takes 50 to 200 years to dissipate naturally.

Therefore, to absorb most of the carbon dioxide caused by one passenger taking one domestic round-trip flight across Canada in 2007, requires planting 15 trees today that won't complete the job until 2047-2057, assuming none is destroyed by fire, disease or insects. If they are, they'll release their carbon back into the atmosphere.
As Guy Dauncy and Patrick Mazza write in Stormy Weather, 101 Solutions to Global Climate Change, from which I took these figures: "(I)f we imagine that tree planting can be the solution to the world's climate problems, we may be making a massive miscalculation."
Flying is also just about the worst way to emit greenhouse gases. Taking one long flight can easily exceed a year's worth of car emissions. Plus, it injects the gas into the atmosphere at high altitude, heightening the greenhouse effect. The only way to be "carbon neutral" when flying is to get off the plane before it takes off.
Then there's Kyoto's "clean development mechanism" allowing developed countries to obtain "carbon credits" to emit more greenhouse gases by bankrolling projects to reduce them in developing nations. But we can't even be sure our foreign aid is reaching the people who most need it now. How can we possibly know these projects will ever happen, or do what we're told they'll do, particularly in corrupt dictatorships? Remember the widespread fraud in the UN's oil-for-food program in Iraq? Wait until Kyoto, a UN treaty, is fully operational.
*********************************
When it comes to 'greenies' I get upset because of the genocide they allowed to happen after Rachel Carson's 1961 book Silent Spring.

The genocide is they convincing the head person at the USA EPA to make a ban on DDT conditional on aid to African countries. That was in 1969 at the same time malaria was almost eradicated. Since then millions have died. So where are the 'greenies'? Hanging their collective heads in shame? No way.

They are out and about getting ready to destroy our atmosphere by silly schemes like injecting dust into the upper atmosphere to deflect life giving heat from the Sun or having mirrors erected in space to shut out the Sun.

They sit back content knowing their early work caused the 'murder' of millions (the DDT matter). I suppose to them the death of billions by screwing with our atmosphere is OK as long as they got their way.

Explain please the reason any sane person keeps allowing this to go on.

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Yes Tiroch those are countries that would greatly benefit by disintegration of Western democracies. The WEST did not defeat USSR Empire by military might. It was by setting up impossible (for communist economy) economic goals that bankrupted communist countries and the Empire fell apart. No one is immune to such a tactics, especially democracies so fragmented as ours.

[Tiroch]

Argonavis

Exactly my reference.

And yes a few hundred thousand years of observing weather patterns may actually bring clarity to the raging issue of GW which has only 150 years of temperature measurements (invention of the thermometer).

So out of a few billion years of changing climate we are experts with at the most a 150 year time line of measuring. Ridiculous! And deep down any thinking person would know that.

Something else is afoot and it is not true climate science.

[Tiroch]

Right Karls48 and the Chinese are currently not fragmented. That of course can blow up at anytime but we can't bet on that.

BTW I thought it was Reagan's outspend the USSR on weapons that caused the economic collapse.

[LX200]

Originally Posted by Tiroch

Argonavis
.......Best I know the main cause of an Ice Age is the change in Earth axis tilt.

Jeeze I hope it happens again in my lifetime
I notice the magnetic shift is creeping steadily along.
like an elastic band stretching until the point where it snaps back
correcting itself.
Now multiple poles and multiple aurorae would be something to see.
The bonus would be NO MORE planes flying around creating GW

[Tiroch]

To LX200,

Well the Earth axis tilt has a cycle too long for our lifetimes (that is a predictable) but on the other hand a flip in the magnetic poles is imminent (that is an unpredictable) which means soon, maybe a lifetime or maybe more.

The latter is based on geological rock analysis as to magnetic alignment of certain rock minerals which shows periodic flipping but not on a predictable schedule such as axis tilt.

Signs of a flip is whale beaching which is now blamed on disorientation due to a change in the magnetic grid flux pattern. Other signs come from certain birds migrating to places they never did in the past.

[Karls48 (Karl)]

BTW I thought it was Reagan's outspend the USSR on weapons that caused the economic collapse.

That was the final nail in the coffin, rot started much earlier.

[Karls48 (Karl)]

By the way, do you realise that North Pole is actually South Pole. We just call it North because north point of magnetic needle points to it.