Australia Day attended by growing controversy

[PCH (Paul)]

Originally Posted by Sol-Skysailor

The best time to discuss this is perhaps when calm,
not during the heat of the Day.
And these events take months in planning ahead for 2018.

An earlier post (please discuss the topic, not the persons)
offered a view that

“better it was the ‘Brits’….” “should call it a Thank You Day”

Is this not just like (as an analogy) saying in a domestic violence case,

“Stop complaining! You’re lucky I only beat you 5 times today.
xyz next door beat theirs 10 times.”?

Then “Don’t call this a sorry day, you should call it a Thank You day
in gratitude for being punched only 5 times! And not quite dead.”

And how would you know what it would have been like if the Dutch
or another crowd cultivated and irrigated here?

Only refuting the reasoning,
hoping for logic, reasoning, filters, and empathy to be part of the education system.

I believe it’s good to acknowledge past wrongs that happened,
happened to our people, to us as a nation,
(caused by many factors that continue to affect most beings now)
AND it’s good to work out what best to do next.

I reckon…. Not a sorry day, not a thank you Brits day, but a mutual celebration of peace day.

Well, there's no harm in dreaming, lol.

[Wavytone]

Fail.

The lefties have been peddling the "we wuz first" and "we wuz konkered" line to the aborigines. Until that dies down there can be no progress. There is no group with any credible claim to being "first" and its quite clear new arrivals were happening for thousands of years - the whities merely happened to be rather late on the scene and identifiably different by (a) being white, (b) arriving in ships, and (c) having all the accoutrements of 18th century european life i.e. education, clothes, science, technology and much better food.

And the influx continues to this day.

There are many migrants who have arrived here with nothing more than what they were standing in, have received very little assistance compared to the aborigines and done perfectly well. In this respect the aborigines are the least successful of all immigrant groups by any measure of success - despite the millennia here - and frankly a mob of dismal failures.

IMHO let's settle it once and for all and stop the whining about "reconciliation" which is really a never-ending demand for handouts from the taxpayer.
Put a stop to the bludging and move on.

[xelasnave]

Who is bludging?
Alex

[Ausrock (Chris)]

An idle observation...........:

So many of us make these "judgements" based on our current values which are realistically only relevant to "the now" when we should be shutting up until we can honestly say we can understand the values of our predecessors times, whatever century they happen to have been in.

Think about it!!!

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Changing the date implies that the act of settlement that began Australia in its current form on that date was a mistake.
If people honestly believe that it was, then their best course of action is to leave, and hand over any land they own to Aboriginies.
Remaining on land that you claim was 'stolen/invaded' whilst criticising that exact thing, is totally hypocritical.

True and proof that a lot of us are hypocrites if we believe that !!
And when are we going to stop apologizing- other people / countries have been conquering all over the world for millennia and never apologize yet we DO, ADD NAUSEUM .
Sure we should help , but enough is enough!!
bigjoe

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by bigjoe

True and proof that a lot of us are hypocrites if we believe that !!
And when are we going to stop apologizing- other people / countries have been conquering all over the world for millennia and never apologize yet we DO, ADD NAUSEUM .
Sure we should help , but enough is enough!!
bigjoe

Hi bigjoe....
I don't think anyone has apologised...ADD NAUSEUM...I think you have just made that up.

I don't know why folk are so down on our aborigines.
I ask this of anyone who has a problem with them.
Have you ever met an aboriginal?
Have you ever sat with one and had a beer and a chat?
Have you worked with them or spent time at some social occassion.?

And a further question ... Do you think it is wise to generalise having gleened a few clips on TV upon matters presumably presented to stir certain emotions and to promote division.

When we inject emotion without facts or experience we should take time to consider if we know enough to provide meaningful input.

Alex

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Hi bigjoe....
I don't think anyone has apologised...ADD NAUSEUM...I think you have just made that up.

I don't know why folk are so down on our aborigines.
I ask this of anyone who has a problem with them.
Have you ever met an aboriginal?
Have you ever sat with one and had a beer and a chat?
Have you worked with them or spent time at some social occassion.?

And a further question ... Do you think it is wise to generalise having gleened a few clips on TV upon matters presumably presented to stir certain emotions and to promote division.

When we inject emotion without facts or experience we should take time to consider if we know enough to provide meaningful input.

Alex

I actually do have some aboriginal friends Alex ,and its just an opinion which I am allowed to express.
NO offence to my aboriginal friends!!!
bigjoe

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by Wavytone

Fail.

The lefties have been peddling the "we wuz first" and "we wuz konkered" line to the aborigines. Until that dies down there can be no progress. There is no group with any credible claim to being "first" and its quite clear new arrivals were happening for thousands of years - the whities merely happened to be rather late on the scene and identifiably different by (a) being white, (b) arriving in ships, and (c) having all the accoutrements of 18th century european life i.e. education, clothes, science, technology and much better food.

And the influx continues to this day.

There are many migrants who have arrived here with nothing more than what they were standing in, have received very little assistance compared to the aborigines and done perfectly well. In this respect the aborigines are the least successful of all immigrant groups by any measure of success - despite the millennia here - and frankly a mob of dismal failures.

IMHO let's settle it once and for all and stop the whining about "reconciliation" which is really a never-ending demand for handouts from the taxpayer.
Put a stop to the bludging and move on.

I dont think bludging is the right word too harsh, but I get your drift.
bigjoe.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by bigjoe

I actually do have some aboriginal friends Alex ,and its just an opinion which I am allowed to express.
NO offence to my aboriginal friends!!!
bigjoe

I only wish to explore your opinion bigjoe what I meant to ask and what I was actually leading up to but left it out was to ask what did you mean when you said enough is enough.

Alex

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I only wish to explore your opinion bigjoe what I meant to ask and what I was actually leading up to but left it out was to ask what did you mean when you said enough is enough.

Alex

Lets just agree Alex, that everyone has there own opinions on these matters , and I'll leave it at that !
Best wishes to you bigjoe.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by bigjoe

Lets just agree Alex, that everyone has there own opinions on these matters , and I'll leave it at that !
Best wishes to you bigjoe.

I understood a long time ago folk have a vast variety of opinion and I am happy to look at and understand yours however I sence you feel uncomfortable and accept you wish to "leave it at that".
No problems and best wishes to you from me.
Alex

[Sol-Skysailor (Sol)]

from another poster
.... ships, .... education, clothes, science, technology and much better food.

What other groups at the time or earlier also had “… ships, education, clothes, science, technology and much better food“
(apart from the differentiated group that the post named ‘whities’)?

What geography and history classes did not teach we can find out
by a little research, and progress on logic some.
And I could be wrong of course... so we can go further through discourse.
Did these other groups go naked
or wear clothes, spin and weave practical and intricate textiles?
Did they have fresh foods unchemicalised and tasty cuisines?
Did they build some amazing engineering constructions?
(I quite like Machu Picchu, Cusco, pyramids, aqueducts.)
(Egypt is in Africa, right? Aqueduct etc builders were once insulted here as wogs?)
Did they navigate the vast Polynesian seas? Did they have ships (hints 1418, armada)?
Did they throw wastes into the streets, had 'boy...boy for sale',
traded captured slaves and lynched them? Or were they Hollywood and fake news.
Did they have health and hygiene or did they have plagues?
Did they have morals and kindness (too) or did their punitive system overflow?

All ‘sides’ did some good and did some horrids.
Let us stop quoting one ‘group’ as superior. What is ‘advances’ anyway…..??!
Advances closer to midnight?

To move forward any, from past lessons, it’s now
and by the non-superior unprejudiced we first-through-to-last people.

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Wavytone

Fail.

In this respect the aborigines are the least successful of all immigrant groups by any measure of success - despite the millennia here - and frankly a mob of dismal failures

So the longest continuous culture on the planet is a dismal failure? WTF!!!

Oh my Gog! that has got to be one of the most outrageously ignorant statements I have ever heard. Many Australian aboriginals are capable of surviving, long term, in terrain that would terminate your sorry arse in a couple of hours, (if that), and those that still live in contact with country have a vast knowledge of the land that would eclipse most, if not all, other cultures except, (possibly), the San. Their understanding of environment, the materials in it, their food sources, hunting techniques, art, their own history is incredible. We are only JUST NOW starting to comprehend the level of complexity of pre-European settlement aboriginal culture and that's about it. We have just scratched the surface.

The only "dismal failure" here is in your education and sheer bloody arrogance. You should be ashamed of your statement.

Yes, we all need to live together, eventually, and give and take are important but its attitudes like this that just make me want to hurl.

[xelasnave]

I would not try to change someone's view of the world but suggest the main benefit of having compassion and understanding is that it can only make you feel good about yourself, and compassion in the area we talk about is necessary even if one feels its time to move on ..for some that's not easy and many will understand why many won't see a problem.
Or we could all go back to Africa, all humans, that's where we came from.
Confine all humans to Africa...let the Americas, Asia Europe, everywhere regenerate and never intrude on the animals and confined to where we came from...Africa.
Imagine how nice so many places would have been without early humans even.
Unimaginable now but what a place it must have been...
Alex

[xelasnave]

I am thinking 1000 year old trees.
Alex

[Sol-Skysailor (Sol)]

Thanks, Rom, in particular -very useful information.

I think it’s helpful to discuss. Not necessarily to change someone’s opinion,
rather laying a view for all readers to see and advance.
Huck Finn: In a barrel of odds and ends it is different; things get
mixed up, and the juice kind of swap around, and the things go better :-)

by another poster:
Changing the date implies that the act of settlement that began Australia in its current form on that date was a mistake.
If people honestly believe that it was, then their best course of action is to leave, and hand over any land they own to Aboriginies.
Remaining on land that you claim was 'stolen/invaded' whilst criticising that exact thing, is totally hypocritical.

{Changing the date} implies that {……}
I think this is Logic False. No, it does not imply that.

{the act of settlement …} was {a mistake}.
I think this is an incorrect conclusion. I think the issue is
‘the violent or/and unfair manner’ rather than the co-habitation.

{ their best course of action} is {to leave, and hand over….}
Sounds like….Telling others where to go and what to do? If so,
is this not recognised more and more as power-over language?

{totally hypocritical}
Sounds to me like getting to be judgemental and accusative?
Hope you did not intend.
Based on earlier false conclusions too.

For discussion: Does this analogy work?
If I burnt toasts (or some relations or previous occupants did)
it doesn’t mean I should quit making toasts and return the toaster.
I would make better toasts next time.

And I don’t think any of our First People ask all the newcomers
to clear off the continent (the way some of these very newcomers tell
newercomers and newestcomers to go back to where they came from.)
Kind of funny.

How about this one? Suppose one moves into a house and the previous owner
or rental property owner (lets quit calling them/us landlords) communicated
that previous occupants intentionally or unintentionally caused some damage,
what’s wrong with saying
gee whizz I’d never do that and SORRY IT HAPPENED TO YOU.
Then one could make sure of not causing such damage,
and do something good extra.
Why, surely it’s not hard to be kind?

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Sol-Skysailor

How about this one? Suppose one moves into a house and the previous owner
or rental property owner (lets quit calling them/us landlords) communicated
that previous occupants intentionally or unintentionally caused some damage,
what’s wrong with saying
gee whizz I’d never do that and SORRY IT HAPPENED TO YOU.
Then one could make sure of not causing such damage,
and do something good extra.
Why, surely it’s not hard to be kind?

I think its called, "basic respect". I became blood brother to an aboriginal I went to school with almost 50 years ago. I was vilified for it back then. I considered it then, and now, as an honour to be regarded so highly by a member of the First people and the aboriginals in my school school stood up for this poor little pommy ******* on many occasions, I might add.

I went on to become a teacher and have worked with a lot of aboriginal kids, and their families. When a white man asks permission to enter an aboriginals home and takes the time to understand their perspective and treat them with a bit of basic respect, bloody hell, the change is amazing. Years later, they'll still say "G'day" on the street and tell me whats going on for them now.

Yep, as a direct result of what MY culture has done, through ignorance, and sometimes design, there are a lot of very damaged aboriginals and that's just a consequence of cultural collision, but to speak in derogatory terms belittles us more than them.

I feel incredibly fortunate to live on the same continent as the First people. We have an awful lot to learn from them and an obligation to help them deal with the consequences of our ancestors' actions.

Anyone who wants to scoff should place themselves in the others footsteps and if that don't work, they can F-off back to where they came from

[LewisM]

And this thread won't die.

I'd like to call it the Tardigrade Thread - this one can exist in the vacuum and radiative nature of space in perpetuity ad nauseum ad infinitum.

[JA]

Where's the aluminium foil when you need it.

best
JA

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

Originally Posted by el_draco

they can F-off back to where they came from

I wish you would do the same.