Total Blackout in all of SA

[Exfso (Peter)]

Marty, I am basically referring to the ridiculous costs that are put on the SA consumers, we are well and truly the most expensive state in Australia for power by some margin and it is only going to get much worse, hence my statement about people in 10yrs time working only to pay their power bills. In my suburb we experience power outages several times a month and these are not just maintenance outages. It is one thing to be shafted for costs but when an unreliable power supply is added, it is no wonder South Australians are p1ssed off to the max. I am one of the luckier ones as I got solar 4 years ago, and have the higher feed in tariff, but the poor buggers who only recently got solar, (at a much lower price than I paid) have had their feed in tariffs removed but for the measly 6.8c/kwh that the suppliers are bound to offer.
I seriously believe that the excreta is going to hit the air circulating device in SA sooner than later. People cannot be expected to put up with the crud that is being served up. The total power failure is starting to look like the straw that broke the camels back.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by The_bluester

Question, with things like the diesel fuel subsidy. To what extent is coal fired power already "Subsidised"? We hear much wailing and gnashing of teeth that coal and gas thermal is now unable to compete in SA due to subsidies for renewables while coal and gas indirect subsidies are effectively pushed under the carpet in the discussion. How do the competing "Subsidies" actually compare?

Excellent point...
Another I would add:
Should we not also factor in to the equation the deferred costs of fossil fool energy?

You know... like the damage bill caused by extreme weather events as a result of AGW... acidification of the oceans... releasing mercury in to the biosphere... reduced crop yields... death of the great barrier reef and other biospheres?

I'm sure Renato would contend that share holder return is the priority, however...

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by Exfso

Marty, I am basically referring to the ridiculous costs that are put on the SA consumers, we are well and truly the most expensive state in Australia for power by some margin and it is only going to get much worse, hence my statement about people in 10yrs time working only to pay their power bills. In my suburb we experience power outages several times a month and these are not just maintenance outages. It is one thing to be shafted for costs but when an unreliable power supply is added, it is no wonder South Australians are p1ssed off to the max. I am one of the luckier ones as I got solar 4 years ago, and have the higher feed in tariff, but the poor buggers who only recently got solar, (at a much lower price than I paid) have had their feed in tariffs removed but for the measly 6.8c/kwh that the suppliers are bound to offer.
I seriously believe that the excreta is going to hit the air circulating device in SA sooner than later. People cannot be expected to put up with the crud that is being served up. The total power failure is starting to look like the straw that broke the camels back.

I think "electricity" is getting more expensive nation-wide. But maybe it is worse in SA. I have electricity in apostrophes, because most of the cost is in transmission and distribution, not electricity generation.

The added expense may simply be because now consumers are actually paying the true cost, rather than subsidised via their taxes. Or because the system is ancient and needs money spent on it. Or because the regulator is demanding more reliability (though it sounds like that's not great). Or .. who knows. It all costs money. Lots of money.

[Exfso (Peter)]

Originally Posted by bugeater

I think "electricity" is getting more expensive nation-wide. But maybe it is worse in SA. I have electricity in apostrophes, because most of the cost is in transmission and distribution, not electricity generation.

The added expense may simply be because now consumers are actually paying the true cost, rather than subsidised via their taxes. Or because the system is ancient and needs money spent on it. Or because the regulator is demanding more reliability (though it sounds like that's not great). Or .. who knows. It all costs money. Lots of money.

I believe South Australia has the dubious distinction of being the most expensive electricity in all of the developed countries. I know that it is around double the rate of what is being charged in Qld. If we are all on a common grid, why in hell is it so damn expensive in SA. I know if I did not have Solar I would be up for around $800/quarter and that is being frugal with my useage. I know that this is digressing from the original thread content, but it just irks me to have such unreliable electrical supply and paying absolutely top dollar, something is very wrong.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

The pity being that rooftop solar systems trip out in the event of an incoming mains failure as a safety precaution. Otherwise they will backfeed into the grid and cause a safety issue for power line workers as lines they expect to be dead will still be live.

It might be possible to design out and have your home system island itself but I bet that the cost would be significant.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by The_bluester

The pity being that rooftop solar systems tri out in the event of an incoming mains failure as a safety precaution. Otherwise they will backfeed into the grid and cause a safety issue for power line workers as lines they expect to be dead will still be live.

It might be possible to design out and have your home system island itself but I bet that the cost would be significant.

Not really Paul, just disconnect from the grid entirely, then you will have no trip out issues. Sure you will need some re-engineering of the inverter setup and establish a battery bank but it is all very do-able. The question will always be, "are you prepared for the lifestyle compromises that off-grid living require"?

[The_bluester (Paul)]

I did see rumblings about people becoming more likely to start doing that in future, which carries all sorts of other risks as well. Suc as the fact that the grid will still need to be there and be maintained, but paid for by fewer users, so connection fees could skyrocket, unless it ends up like the banks currently are with privatized profits but socialised risk, with tax money subsidising it to keep it going in the face of fewer users.

Wonder how big an inverter I would need to run a welder without issues. Sizeable I suspect, and maybe requiring something like a friend put in once, a motor/generator single to multi phase system (As he wanted to do something requiring 415V when his property was on a SWER line) I suppose that would have the advantage of the rotating mass insulating the house supply from the sudden voltage dips common with welding. he bought that long before inverters started to come down in price but for some applications you could still see advantages in a rotary converter.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by The_bluester

Wonder how big an inverter I would need to run a welder without issues. Sizeable I suspect, .

We have a 6000W inverter (12kW peak) fed by 2kW of Panels and ten large deep cycle batteries (up on the farm)

It will run a 130 stick without breaking a sweat.

The 250 amp MIG can be run up to 200 amps.. but the inverter trips quite often... (under full sun)
The batteries aren't what they used to be though. ymmv.


fwiw) We used to have a 5kVA pure sine wave generator... it wouldn't run the MIG on even the lowest setting.
Burnt out the control electronics in about 5 seconds flat.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

That is where I suspect for applications like that a rotary converter would do better, use the flywheel mass to damp out the load spike of striking an arc.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Excellent point...
Another I would add:
Should we not also factor in to the equation the deferred costs of fossil fool energy?

We should, but nobody does. Imho, any piece of infrastructure should include the third party environmental costs in its business case.

At a federal level we are constantly being told to reduce carbon emmissions, with various taxes and subsidies, whilst at a state level we keep investing in imported petroleum based transport.
Do these clowns not talk to each other?

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by Exfso

I believe South Australia has the dubious distinction of being the most expensive electricity in all of the developed countries. I know that it is around double the rate of what is being charged in Qld. If we are all on a common grid, why in hell is it so damn expensive in SA.

Transmission costs. SA consumers are a very long way from the Victorian power stations that they rely on.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Transmission costs. SA consumers are a very long way from the Victorian power stations that they rely on.

and transmission costs within the state - we have roughly 1/4 the population of Victoria, spread out over about 4x the area. Our network has an extended linear structure and inherently limited redundancy if something bad happens on the backbone

[Exfso (Peter)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Transmission costs. SA consumers are a very long way from the Victorian power stations that they rely on.

Ben, that really is my point, we are reliant on other states, because the govt decides to shut down our power stations.

[cfranks (Charles)]

Let's propose that a government, state or federal, does away with the current power distribution infrastructure and installs a suitable solar panels/invertor/batteries combo for every house in the state/country. The price, amortised over enough years but not less than your current power bill, would pay for it and more. After it was paid for, a 'maintenance' cost, cheaper than your current power bill but standardised over the country, would be continued providing income to the gov't. The manufacture would be done in-country with start-ups generating lots of jobs. Lots of new 'Steptoe and Sons' starting up to get rid of the current distribution system. Hacksaw blade manufacture goes viral! Etc. etc. Probably wouldn't take more than 20 years or so.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Originally Posted by Exfso

Ben, that really is my point, we are reliant on other states, because the govt decides to shut down our power stations.

Not really the case. The government decided to sell them to private operators who are motivated by profit and those operators decide to shut them down. Absolutely nothing at all stopping them (Largely the same companies) mothballing generation in Victoria as well.

[Exfso (Peter)]

Originally Posted by The_bluester

Not really the case. The government decided to sell them to private operators who are motivated by profit and those operators decide to shut them down. Absolutely nothing at all stopping them (Largely the same companies) mothballing generation in Victoria as well.

Paul that may be the case, but as I said SA is flat broke and selling off its assets is a recipe for disaster they basically do not give a toss once they have sold out. To be reliant on the whims of private operators has proved to be a disaster for the consumer, at least here in SA, currently we are stuffed and far from home to coin a phrase.
I don't know of anything that did not get worse once privatisation took over, but I suppose that someone here will come up with an example.

I just checked the oldest electricity account I can find dated end of 2010 and in that time the rates have risen in the order of 110% as well as the supply charges pretty well doubling as well. I think that pretty well fits in with when SA had its Electricity privatised. One does expect prices to increase, it is just a fact of life, but not in this order of magnitude, or am I being unreasonable.

[raymo]

What are the charges in S.A. Peter? My last bill here in W.A. $440, was for 61
days; there is only the two of us, and we get a bit of a reduction for being pensioners.
raymo

[Exfso (Peter)]

Originally Posted by raymo

What are the charges in S.A. Peter? My last bill here in W.A. $440, was for 61
days; there is only the two of us, and we get a bit of a reduction for being pensioners.
raymo

Currently for the 1st 11kwh it is 34.4c/kwh then 38.43 and the daily supply charge is 71.6c/day. these are inclusive of gst. All the suppliers are around the same give or take a cent/kwh. If I did not have the solar feedin, I would be broke. Based on a daily useage of around 20kwh/day over 90 days I would be up for around $650/quarter. To add insult to injury they are talking about more increases. I used to use about 30kwh per day until I got real frugal and changed all the lights over and started turning off appliances that had standby running, like TV's etc. With the Solar I only use around 12 a day in winter months and 8 in summer, so that has been brilliant. I hate to think how a family with 2 adults and 2+ kids would fare.
Your bill is for 61 days so over 90 days it is on par with what we would be paying here, depends on your daily usage though. If you are using around 20kwh per day, well you are similar to here, but if using more than that your rates are obviously lower.
6 years ago here, the rate was around 16.5c/kwh for the first tier and approx. 19c/kwh thereafter. So in effect is has just over doubled.

[raymo]

I was wrong, my bill was for 57 days. Your rates are much higher than ours.
We pay 24.067 c/kwh, and 44.18c/day. I used 30 units per day. My reverse
cycle a/c is not an inverter model, which doesn't help.
raymo

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Our house is three adults and a child with two of the adults home full time, we have not had a quarter under $1000 in a couple of year. I would have to look our rates up again, I can't recall what they are, but not cheap.

We have looked into rooftop solar a number of times but with the feed in tariffs as they are it only works if we design to cover our daytime consumption when people are at home including moving as much stuff like clothes washing etc into daytime as possible. Not much point selling back into the grid at less than 25% of the retail rate.

I think things like solar PV with battery storage will only become properly viable when the cost of the storage falls significantly, and even then if you can afford a system capable of producing and storing enough to essentially meet all of your needs with virtually nothing going back into the grid. It is a loosing game to sell something for 7c and buy it back again for 30.