New habitable planet discovered ?

[xelasnave]

Evidence re 48 cylinder bike can be found here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wQA49EZucg


alex

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Real brain bender there, Rob. I agree with the logic and your conclusions which you've expressed via analogy, but can I ask what the difference between 'countable' and uncountable' is?

.. I mean if something is infinite, I don't see how it can be counted ?
Yet, this seems to be key to what you are saying.

Help me !



Cheer & Rgds

Countable in this sense means I can match every number in the set to a unique natural or counting number e.g. for the integers ... 0 is matched to 0, 1 to 1, -1 to 2, 2 to 3, -2 to 4 and so on. So the set of integers is effectively the same infinite size as the set of counting numbers. However, the set of real numbers is much larger than the set of counting numbers. No matter how I try to match each real number to a counting number, I can always invent another one that won't match. Example sqr(2) matched to 1, sqr(3) to 2, sqr(4) to 3 etc but then where does pi go?

Regards, Rob.

[renormalised (Carl)]

but then where does pi go?

In the oven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Robh

Countable in this sense means I can match every number in the set to a unique natural or counting number e.g. for the integers ... 0 is matched to 0, 1 to 1, -1 to 2, 2 to 3, -2 to 4 and so on. So the set of integers is effectively the same infinite size as the set of counting numbers. However, the set of real numbers is much larger than the set of counting numbers. No matter how I try to match each real number to a counting number, I can always invent another one that won't match. Example sqr(2) matched to 1, sqr(3) to 2, sqr(4) to 3 etc but then where does pi go?

Regards, Rob.

Thanks Rob.

You had me running away to read up on countable, uncountable, real and integers. I think I get it now. Learn something every day, huh ? Thanks for that.

Kind of challenges the definition of 'infinite', though .. I'm looking at this like the observable universe vs the real universe, which we think of as infinite.

It is difficult to articulate the huge statistical probabilities on all of this. As Alex mentioned 'samples' and 'sample sizes', it got me thinking as well.

I might get around to expressing myself more clearly on all this someday. It's not easy though .. I've had a couple of go's at it now and it very often comes out the wrong way.



Cheers & Thanks.

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

In our solar system there is life on at least one planet does this not give us the probability rating for all other solar systems?
The problem is we only have one sample so we feel restricted to coming down on the unrealistic view we are somehow unique...

I suggest although we can only operate with one sample the pointer should be that in the sample we have we have at least one planet with life..until other samples contradict our only available sample that we can only conclude all samples will be the same and until other samples prove inconsistent to the current sample we are bound to attribute similar to all similar samples..or in other words..life should exist in the zones habitable by Earths standards...is it unreasonable to work on the basis that all samples will probably be different (no life) to the sample we observe ...

Would it not be arrogant in the extreme to approach the matter any other way for to do so suggests that we are somehow very very special indeed... we found we were not the center of the solar system was that not enough to cool human arrogance.


alex

That's the point, we have a sample of One. You cannot deduce any probabilities based on one planet. If life is that rare that we are the only planet with life on it within a billion light years distance, it will take us a long time to realise this.
I am not averse to the research. Who knows what we will find!

Regards, Rob

[renormalised (Carl)]

You can't deduce anything with such a small sample, so anything you predicate on this is just a moot point. Nothing more than speculation. But that doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion, just that they have to be careful about how they word that opinion and how the come across with expressing it.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Robh

If life is that rare that we are the only planet with life on it within a billion light years distance, it will take us a long time to realise this.

This statement would seem to say that 'Habitable Zones' have nothing to do with finding life.

Conversely it could also be said that:

"If life is commonplace then it may not take us long to realise this".

So, the outcome is directly dependent on one's belief about whether life is commonplace or not.

Interesting, eh ?

Cheers

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

You can't deduce anything with such a small sample, so anything you predicate on this is just a moot point. Nothing more than speculation. But that doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion, just that they have to be careful about how they word that opinion and how the come across with expressing it.

Wisely put.

Rob

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

This statement would seem to say that 'Habitable Zones' have nothing to do with finding life.

Cheers

These two statements are not equivalent.
Life exists here. Therefore it lives in a Habitable Zone.
This is a Habitable Zone. Therefore it must have life.

We have no evidence for the second statement.

Rob

[renormalised (Carl)]

It's a case of habitable zones = chances of life = very good (but not a certainty)....I'd rate it at 90%. If the conditions for life, even as we know it are met, then chances are it's there. Look at our own planet....life got started here very early, before the LHB and even by then it was fairly advanced microbial life, so it was evolving even before then. It may have taken a long time to go beyond those stages, but that doesn't mean the same thing will happen elsewhere. Life might get off early on a planet and evolve much faster than here, or it may still be pea soup even after 5 billion years. Actually, the harsher the conditions, the more likely evolution will drive the appearance of advanced life forms earlier, so long as it's not overwhelmingly harsh. You could say diversity in adversity. Our little neck of the universe may have been a bit too cushy for life, for all we know.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Robh

These two statements are not equivalent.
Life exists here. Therefore it lives in a Habitable Zone.
This is a Habitable Zone. Therefore it must have life.

We have no evidence for the second statement.

Rob

Cool.

Cheers

[Alchemy (Clive)]

I watch with interest, most threads regarding the possibility of life, I think to humans curiosity is just the most natural thing.

Habitable zone really just refers to the temperature requirements of liquid water, not much else.

So many factors are required for our life to exist, an automatic assumption that life is there on this planet inferred or otherwise is awesomely optimistic, and really is just a headline grabber, nothing else.

Mars had water, for a long time too. It's not that far away, yet we can't determine with any accuracy does it/ did it have life. So clearly trying to determine such for a planet 20 light years away presents some difficulties.

[renormalised (Carl)]

The only real way we're going to be able to tell is actually go there. Whether that's Mars or GL581g, or anywhere else for that matter.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

The only real way we're going to be able to tell is actually go there. Whether that's Mars or GL581g, or anywhere else for that matter.

Yep .. the chase is worth the effort .. and will benefit everyone !!

Cheers

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

The only real way we're going to be able to tell is actually go there. Whether that's Mars or GL581g, or anywhere else for that matter.

And then when we get there the “life” on that that planet could be so different to ours that it will regard us as merely part of spacecraft systems. And it will determine that real intelligent life on board is the guidance computer. Unless it runs Microsoft operating system:

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Karls48

And then when we get there the “life” on that that planet could be so different to ours that it will regard us as merely part of spacecraft systems. And it will determine that real intelligent life on board is the guidance computer. Unless it runs Microsoft operating system

In which case, they will put it in a home for the severely handicapped

Seriously though, you have a very good point. Something that was brought up in the first Star Trek movie with the Enterprise's encounter with the entity V'ger. What if the planet was populated by living, sentient machines. They may not recognise carbon based lifeforms as being sentient, or even alive. Especially if they've never encountered that type of life before.

[renormalised (Carl)]

If these guys knew anything about atmospheric physics, geology, stellar physics and evolution, they'd be a danger to themselves...most of the posts borders on driveling...but then again it is based on Thornhill's nonsense.

http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB...php?f=4&t=3758

What makes me laugh are the signatures of these fools...they're really not worth repeating and most read like "corn flakes packet" wisdom. But then again, something like that would be lost on these guys, considering how easily duped they are.

[xelasnave]

Also maybe what we consider to be habitable places an unnecessary restriction upon life as where we can expect to find it...maybe in other places is not so.
Consider the life around those underwater volcano vents ..should not happen but it has... life near those deep brine pools away from solar radiation.Only a few years ago any scientist worth feeding would have declared life was impossible due to the harsh conditions.

Also we can only think about carbon based life forms..perhaps there will be other forms of life beyond what we consider to be possible... I have heard speculation upon silicon life form ...

Even water may not be as critical as we estimate.

We have one sample..or one example upon which we can comment but the number of bodies in the universe as we suspect it to be would suggest so many opportunities even a one in a billion chance would see life almost "everywhere".

I think there is a message with the utube 48 cylinder bike... being beyond our expectations or imagination has little to do with the reality of somethings existence.

Also when one considers the variety of life forms on this planet it suggests a determination by life to be there irrespective of the wild adaptions to fit a particular environment. I do wonder if there will be only one DNA or will it just be peculiar to Earth. So interesting that all life on this planet has the same basic floor plan..that is so very curious and suggestive that such a plan would be able to adapt to any place at all.

I caught part of a conspiracy movie today (so stupid it hurt) but it suggests we will need an external threat (a nasty ET to replace the, by that time, the eliminated terrorists) and after humans have eliminated all violence on the planet..we will need outsiders from out there ..all based on the need of war for capitalism to survive etc...so in that context the powers will need to find life and make sure it is a threat to us...
add to that the dictate of nature ..only the strong survive I feel we need to start the search in earnest.

As our powers of observation become better we may be able to find hints in distant atmospheres that strongly suggest life... not so intelligent life should provide smog readings
Now the United Nations have a human selected to interact with the first being from beyond ...mmm they must know more than they let on
alex

[xelasnave]

I feel I can out drivel anyone at thunderbolts
alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Those were good points Alex. You are right....even now they're considering the possibility of methane based lifeforms on Titan, with methane replacing water as the solvent of choice. Like I mentioned earlier, the only way we'll ever really know and get to understand life in its fullest is to go to these places. What we will see and learn in the process is going to open up so much to us and in the process of getting there, we will discover and invent things that we can't even begin to dream of today. That's why we need to take that first step, now.