Climate change

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

All species of animal and insect are controlled through a process that had existed for eons before man to maintain an equilibrium.

Man comes along put's himself at the top of the food chain, takes control, developes, last 200 years industrial revolution burns fuel, breeds vast herds of methane producing animals, breeds like flies, increases their life span, controls deseases.

I cannot believe that we may be so naive to believe that as a species we have not adversely affected the environment we live in.

hear hear.

Dave

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Regardless who is right or wrong about cause of Global warming. Most of the governments will introduce one scheme or other to reduce CO2 emissions for simple reason that it will allow them to increase tax revenue without appearing to raise general taxes. Once the constituency starts hurting in hip pocket nerves they will kick those governments out in preference of the oppositions parties that will take advantage of it. In about 5 to 8 years whole Global warming issue will slowly disappear and people will take weather for what it is – weather - always changing. It will be replaced yet by some other crusade for or against something.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Sorry, but couldn't resist being pert and cheeky in my reply:

no, Trevor, it's the cows secret attempt to overun mankind by incessantly farting.

Dave

Let's get'em!

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Yes CO2 concentration does lag temperature rise by about 800 years. This is also well understood as the oceans and ground warm they liberate CO2 this then adds to the warming caused by solar variation. ...

I hope that last bit is a slip of the keyboard. It's accepted that the driver for the cycles you present is changes in the Earth's orbital parameters. It is called the Milankovich hypothesis and the Wiki for it is pretty good so I won't repeat the argument here.

It is true that the concensus is that CO2 rise lags the onset of warming and the increase in CO2 provides a feed-back mechanism that amplifies the effect of orbital changes. This also is the most logical senario. However we should realise that the dating of air bubbles trapped in ice is very problematic. It's been a decade since I last looked at that issue so things may have improved but at that time the dating methods were imprecise and errors of >>800 years were expected.

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Similar tread has been posted about two years ago. Few dissidents have been shouted down by overwhelming majority of GW supporters. Today it seems that ratio of those that support men made GW and the sceptics is about 50 –50. Yet GW had all advantages of the media affirmation. Why there is a rise in dissidents and critical opinions. Is it that some people started to think by themselfs or is it that they realise that Carbon tax is basically increase in GST tax.

[Peter Ward]

Over geological time spans the balance of atmospheric composition has changed. I stress the change has been over *geological* times, so plants and organism adapt, over extended periods.

Sharp changes, as induced by volcanic, impact or greenhouse crises, lead to mass extinction of species (BTW, happening as we speak)

Agreed estimates put human activities pumping 300 billion tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere during the last 200 or so years and CO2 *has* risen from 260 ppm to close to 380ppm with no seriously accepted "natural" mechanism
for this change.

Not bad for just 200 years.....and given geological time scales are in the *millions* of years one wonders what homo-sapiens can accomplish!

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

So 32,000 'scientists' are deniers. They mostly are barely published anywhere apart from their own publications.

Give me a couple of dozen of their names and I will show you they do not have any credibility anywhere!


Sorry.

Bert

Ummmmm names, just a second......
Firstly CO2 is the core componant to life itself and is considered harmless by most scientists.......
As a few have already mentioned a lot of scientist are being manipulated by large corporations and government interests...

Now to stats for hard evidence: 2008 saw temperatures globally at its coolest since 2000 as well as the Artic Sea ice returning to its normal 'vast' levels.....not a sign of global warming !!

Now to some of the names you seek Bert....here are just a few of the 32,000+.....

* Professor David Bellamy
* Dr William Kininmonth - Emeritus head of Australia National Climate Centre
* Reid Bryson PhD - by many regarded as the father of Scientific Climatology America
* Dr William Happer - Director U.S Department of Energy's Office
* Dr Delgado Domingos - Founder Numerical Weather Forecast group
* Dr Ivar Giaever - Nobel Prize winner

And a wonderful and funny comment from Dr Martin Hertzberg - "Carbon Dioxide and the so called greenhouse gases are, by comparison (with the sun and the ocean), the equivalent of a few farts in a hurricane"

I have many many more names.........let me know if you need more........

The sad thing is that i agree with most in that we need to look after our planet. What really gets my back up is when our food is spiked with chemicals, spliced with animal, viral, and other genetic materials and dosed with ever greater levels of cancer causing chemicals or harmful industrial waste products like flouride sold to us as health products.

On a personal note, I have first hand experience. I survived after an 18 month battle fighting for my life....... learnt a lot over this time......and read many many books from all over the world. Needless to say, I am also involved with alternative science to which I owe my life.........

On closing, and sorry to making this such a long reply, food was perfectly right up to 50 years ago and sure as hell tasted better. There were also many many less deaths from cancers, super bugs etc etc..........
Next time, perhaps during the day, we should all focus our telescope and binoculars and wonder if they really are clouds and not chemical sprays or pesticides.........but that is for another totally different day and forum.......

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Originally Posted by Karls48

Regardless who is right or wrong about cause of Global warming. Most of the governments will introduce one scheme or other to reduce CO2 emissions for simple reason that it will allow them to increase tax revenue without appearing to raise general taxes. Once the constituency starts hurting in hip pocket nerves they will kick those governments out in preference of the oppositions parties that will take advantage of it. In about 5 to 8 years whole Global warming issue will slowly disappear and people will take weather for what it is – weather - always changing. It will be replaced yet by some other crusade for or against something.

Karl, I could not have put it better myself..............

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hi All,

I'm not entering an opinion!

Just a theory that was presented on a science documentary on Foxtell.

Global Warming will cause melt down of the polar ice sheets. The Great Ocean convection Currents (GOCC) are powered by the temperature differences at the poles and equator. If this ratio becomes smaller the GOCC will slow or stop.

It is the GOCC that keeps places like the UK warmer than Canada at similar latitudes. Canada freezes over much more than the UK.
This applies to other areas on the planet as well.

If the GOCC stops, the theory is that Earth will be pushed into an ice age. Permanent ice sheets covering much of the inhabited areas. This is the eventual result of global warming.

So many factors to be considered. Like snow or ice and how much more reflective it is. The snowball effect: If the icesheets retreat climate becomes warmer because of less reflection. More heat absorbed, more melting occurs. The oppositte also occurs. When ice sheets advance cooling effects snowball.

It is an interesting and plausable concept. The article was an hour length and explained a number of other contributing factors which are too lengthy for here.

On mini ice ages; much evidence has been found supporting big volcanic eruptions to be responsible, emissions of gases and ash particles.
Sulpher oxides combine in the atmosphere to form acids. Highly reflective to sunlight, while fine ash attenuates the passage of light. This all combines to cool the earth.
This may be an answer to some of those puzzling iceages in the past.

I simply say again here its not an opinion but an observation.

Cheers Marty

[tornado33]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

If my better half was working for the Minister.... I be having a quiet word to her about a national oudoor lighting policy

On that subject, I am astounded at how much power people waste particularily people on lower incomes. I often see housing comission houses with dirty great floodlights left on, rather then normal outdoor lower wattage lights. We have a low energy flouro lighting our carport and it is never left on overnight, and a 60 watt bulb sensor light for the front door, its only on for 10 seconds at a time. One housing commission house nearby had TWO 150 watt floodlights bathing its front yard like daytime, all night. I didnt realise some housing comission tennants were so affluent.

The Council is no better. All over Newcastle, its streets are lit by totally unshielded mercury discharge lights that throw more light sideways and up, then down. Equipped with reflective shielding, bulbs 1/3 the wattage could be used to provide the same amount of illumination. Id like the ratepayers to all band together and go on a rate strike, with all of Newcastle refusing to pay rates untill a proper power saving policy is in place!

[Marclau (Marcel)]

What Tornado.........60watts OMG !!! Joking of course

I think mine are 20watts and I have started moving to those new 6watts from Phillips which are equall to around 40 Watts.......oddly enough....I now have 3 light in the Rumpus room to get the same brightness that the original 120Watt lamp use to provide..........

Something doesnt add up and it's cost me suddenly around $15 for those new bulbs.......hahahaha

[theodog (Jeff)]

Originally Posted by Marclau

...... alternative science .........

I see this as a non-sensical term, better "alternative idea". Science is Science.

Originally Posted by Marclau

On closing, and sorry to making this such a long reply, food was perfectly right up to 50 years ago and sure as hell tasted better. There were also many many less deaths from cancers, super bugs etc etc..........

I agree, food would be better due to the variety but also unreliable in supply. Deaths were perhaps by heart disease earlier in life and many cancer deaths not recorded as such. Super-bugs such as polio, TB and even flu were however, a problem.

Scott, I agree. I object to the waste of energy and money in lighting the skies over our cities.

As for climate change, didn't seem to help or hinder the dinosaures cause. Seems those that yell the loudest have the ear of popular opinion and unfortunately there is to much info for us all to get our heads around the real situation.

Are they arguing concervation or preservation of the earth as we know it?

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Kind of agree Theodog....but who determines what is science.......maybe then it should have read 'alternative medicine'....but.....and there is always a but........when you mention unreliable in supply.......that depends.........my grandfather was a professional market gardner back in Holland........and I mean, he had approx 200 acres and greenhouses of most vegetables and only used cow and horse manure to feed all the vegetables.....non of this other rubbish
And I mean, he grew everything........our vegies tasted better, grew much larger and believe it or not, laster longer both in the fridge or on the shelf....

He always use to tell me (and bless his soul) that it all came down to picking it at the right time..........these days, everything is picked 6 months before it needs to be picked and then thrown in fridges and transported to large freezers for further storage........usually around 6 - 10months later it hits our supermarket freezers..........for this reason we now only buy through the local produce market..........much tastier, cheaper etc etc

On this subject, I ask you to pay special attention to the U.S which is about to introduce a new law. Yes, thats right, a law which will control and outlaw organic farming and home gardens !!! The bill is dreadful......introduced by a chairman on the Mosanto board. Check it out for yourself HR 875.............we will be forced to spray pesticides and use special equipment to comply to the code and a licence costing over $1M US......it will be illegal to grow your own veggies for private consumption............incredible.. ........

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

Thanks Bert,

Your graph demonstrates what we have been talking about, CO2 levels have risen exponentially in recent times, and the temperature rise reached has plateau of between +/- 2 degrees of the 0 mark.

Statistics mean what you want them to mean. Have you demonstrated the link between rising CO2 and temperature?

We are not saying that CO2 hasn't risen, we are asking for the relevance of the statement in regards to global temperature change, and is it Mans fault, or something else not being represented? The conjecture is in the research of the "something else", not enough work has been done on that portion, and that is where the sceptisism comes from.

You asked earlier for a list of people who fall into the sceptics arena - can you please discredit these people for us?
Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics
Dr. Claude Allegre, Geophysicist
Bruno Wiskel, Geologist at the University of Alberta
Dr. Nir Shaviv, Astrophysicist
Dr. Joanna Simpson, Atmospheric scientist
Dr. David Evans, Mathematician and engineer
Dr. Reid Bryson, Meteorologist
Dr. David Bellamy, Botanist
Dr. Tad Murty, Climate researcher Flinders University
Dr. Chris de Freitas, Climate scientist of The University of Auckland, N.Z.
Andrei Kapitsa, a Russian geographer and Antarctic ice core researcher
James A. Peden, Atmospheric physicist
Dr. Richard Courtney, a UN IPCC expert reviewer and a UK-based climate and atmospheric science consultant.

And just to put my "ulterior motives" on the table, I personally benefit from the rising CO2 argument in relation to IT power comsumption. The corporate line and my line diverge significantly as to the relevance.

Trevor, we much either read the same books or magazines as well have similar lists..............scary and I have never met you......

[theodog (Jeff)]

Originally Posted by Marclau

.........my grandfather was a professional market gardner back in Holland........and I mean, he had approx 200 acres and greenhouses of most vegetables and only used cow and horse manure to feed all the vegetables.....non of this other rubbish
And I mean, he grew everything........our vegies tasted better, grew much larger and believe it or not, laster longer both in the fridge or on the shelf....

I must agree, my grandfather did the same on a much smaller scale, my partner and I are trying to get a small veg garden going for that reason.

Originally Posted by Marclau

On this subject, I ask you to pay special attention to the U.S which is about to introduce a new law. Yes, thats right, a law which will control and outlaw organic farming and home gardens !!! The bill is dreadful......introduced by a chairman on the Mosanto board. Check it out for yourself HR 875.............we will be forced to spray pesticides and use special equipment to comply to the code and a licence costing over $1M US......it will be illegal to grow your own veggies for private consumption............incredible.. ........

Surely this would be a violation of a basic human right.
I do have a problem with copyright or patents on biological materials.
I might have to get my family tomato seeds geneticaly mapped and patented.

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Originally Posted by theodog

I must agree, my grandfather did the same, my partner and I are trying to get a small veg garden going for that reason.



Surely this would be a violation of a basic human right.
I do have a problem with copyright or patents on biological materials.
I might have to get my family tomato seeds geneticaly mapped and patented.

Hahahahaha yep, I'll pay you that one.........but seriously, the world has gone mad and we are loosing control to these money grabbing corporations.........I still can't believe they are not rioting in the streets of Washington..............and your spot on about it being a basic human right to be able to grow your own food.........understand perhaps not for resell, but for goodness sake, for your own consuption at least..........might have too get those seeds from you too now !!!

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

Uncensored Magazine... oh dear... I hear the National Enquirer has a great science section as well. Bugga it, it’s only $70 a year I’m going to cancel my subscription to Nature.
David J. Bellamy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bellamy He is a botanist great training for climate research.
Dr William Kininmonth http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=William_Kininmonth
Reid Bryson is dead so not a good source of current data.
Dr William Happer is funded by Exxon funny that.
Dr Delgado Domingos can’t find his bio only find links to conservative websites, seems to be pushing the 650 scientist sign up against GW letter which has as much cred as the similar anti-evolution letter being peddle by the same sites.
DR Ivar Giaever has never publish or actively researched the climate.

But yes lets listen to these people rather then the ones actually doing research.
As for the claims about veggies, Yes farmers only put those evil chemicals in the food to kill people.

[Marclau (Marcel)]

Ken....dont cancel your subscription.......please, believe everything you read in Nature..........better yet, I hear Darwin has a new article out in the Page 3 of Post..........My subscriptions include not just Uncensored but also Earth Sciences amongst others......

You managed to only pick a few names......and did not discredit them.....and as for the Ozzie, he must have done something right as he was head of several National group including Bureau if Meteorology amongst others........and now suddenly, cause the site you mentioned cannot find out too much about him suddenly you discredit him....and Reid Bryson Phd (who only passed away last year), you discredit him??!! Here is his bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_Bryson

Let me know as I and a few others can give you many more names.......better yet, you find them as you will only pick out those that suit your agenda. I suppose you still believe aids came from monkeys too cause we have papers written on that??

On a final note, you believe the people doing research or written a paper!!!!! Damn, even my youngest daughter knows better.........and she is only 5.
If I believe some researches, I would not be alive today to write this post. I sort other advice and live to tell the tale.
And just on that note of writing papers, my colleagues are fully aware of my knowledge and experience in I.T and eCommerce. I wont go so far as to say I'm an expert. Just because I have not written public papers suddenly does not discredit me or highlight the fact that I dont know what I am talking about in that topic.....so your arguement is not valid !!

I agree about your last quote about farmers though........but just a quick note, it's not all farmers try to kill us...........just some of the chemicals they use.......you see, they dont get told the full story either and are just sheep too...

This topic could go on and on and like a few posts back, in 10 years, all this would be forgotten and something else will drive the hidden agenda of the large corporations........

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by Marclau

On this subject, I ask you to pay special attention to the U.S which is about to introduce a new law. Yes, thats right, a law which will control and outlaw organic farming and home gardens !!! The bill is dreadful......introduced by a chairman on the Mosanto board. Check it out for yourself HR 875.............we will be forced to spray pesticides and use special equipment to comply to the code and a licence costing over $1M US......it will be illegal to grow your own veggies for private consumption............incredible.. ........

Doesn't surprise me. You do realise that the US has little care for human rights. Indiscrimant bombings in Afghanisation, Iraq, Vietnam, I could go on. The US is nothing more than a bully, both to its constituents and to the rest of the world. Read some Noam Chomsky and you'll see why I say what I say and why I despise the American government. They're half the cause of global warming. GWB deliberately attempted to either hide GW reports, or twist scientists data and reports to suit his neo nazi desires.

Sorry for the political comments, but the US has a LOT to answer for. Yes, China makes more pollution, but they also have 3 times the amount of people. Per capita, China is far less pollutant. Many Americans still believe it's their right to have 6 litre v12 petrol guzzlers that do 10miles per gallon.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

The US has little care for human rights........ the US has a LOT to answer for........... Many Americans still believe it's their right to have 6 litre v12 petrol guzzlers that do 10miles per gallon.

Dave

Wow! Has this discussion wandered off! I point to the USGCRP which in very unequivocal terms is saying the planet is under some stress (duh!) and its likely to get worse...and we've had:

presentations of usual list of eminent dissenters
its a conspiracy
its nature
its not happening (said humming with fingers in ears and eyes shut)

but Dave's comments above!!!!???

Dave...Maaate. I've spent a good deal of my working life outside of kindergarten Oz. While I would compare the US to a two year old who throws a tantrum when they can't have what the want, to suggest they are human rights abusers par excellence is lunacy.

Try being a female in, Egypt..well most of North Africa.. Iran any of the Emirates. Spend some time in the shanty towns in Johannesburg, Mexico, Manila, Rio....and thinking of the Philippines ...child abuse. The Military junta in Burma etc.
Then there is China.....sigh.....and you wheel out the USA???

US hegemony is real to be sure. But might is right has been going on since will before the Romans. The USA human rights abusers?
You'd have to be nuts.