Ban the Imperial Measures Forever!

[AJames]

ballaratdragons said;

"This thread has mysteriously steered a bit too much from a discussion about Metric and Imperial, to Yank Bashing!"

With all due respect, far from it.

It is really America and their staunch opposition to change that remains at heart the problem for us not having universal measuring system.

We have two very simple solutions. Either we accept the current state of play or we try and make it universal and thus change it. Seeing here in this debate that some believe it is inevitable, and even many Americans already do, the question remains on how to do it.

For example. Should we in Australia simply say that all products imported from America must be expressed only in metric units - following current Australian law?

[Stevo69]

Apart from the reasons I have mentioned earlier, I will keep using imperial for as long as:

• TV screen sizes are measured in both metric and imperial
• nuts, bolts, screws and all kinds of fasteners are manufactured in imperial (I don't know anyone who uses metric fasteners, except for high precision thread applications)
• many drill and machining bits are sold in imperial (same reason as above)
• eyepieces, mirrors, and other telescope parts and accessories are manufactured in imperial
• rim diameter of vehicle tyres are measured in both metric and imperial
• bed mattresses are measured in both metric and imperial
  
• trailers are measured in imperial
• tarpaulins are sold in imperial
• my local picture framer measures in imperial

I'm not being a smarta**e, but my point is while imperial is a common, accepted system of (primarily) length measurement in everyday life, I am happy to continue using it.

Here are some other forums, in other countries and subjects, who have been debating this for some time. Interesting read.

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?t=9408

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/forums/in...128&forumid=16

And here is an interesting news article from the the U.K. I didn't know it's been such an issue over there. Maybe out U.K. brothers on this forum could shed some light?

Originally Posted by AJames

For example. Should we in Australia simply say that all products imported from America must be expressed only in metric units - following current Australian law?

If we did this, nothing would come into the country.

Originally Posted by ballaratdragons

"This thread has mysteriously steered a bit too much from a discussion about Metric and Imperial, to Yank Bashing!"

Nah, I don't think it has degenerated into a Yank bashing session (although I could start a thread I you wanted, it would probably be very popular!). A lot of engineer and scientific groups in the U.S.A. want the metric system, but I think imperial is just so ingrained in the American culture and society, I will almost be impossible to change.

As you can see I don't care either way with imperial; keep it or ditch it.But as long as its commonly accepted in the industries I deal with, I'll keep using it. Anyway, I'm off to take a load of rubbish to the tip, with my 6 x 4 trailer!

[AJames]

Stevo69

Originally Posted by AJames
For example. Should we in Australia simply say that all products imported from America must be expressed only in metric units - following current Australian law?

I think more meant that the packaging should be exclusively in the metric system, more like say a 200 gram packet of biscuits.

I agree that change in how the goods are manufactured, it would be too expensive to do so just for the sake metrication. However, would it not be better if new equipment was in metric units?

If America were to change, then would it not be an instant fix, and would probably take fifty years before it came universal.

Andrew

[mickoking]

Stevo69 said: my local picture framer measures in imperial

I used to be a picture framer and everything was measured in Millimetres. If a customer came in requiring a size in Inches it was immediately converted to mm's.

[Gerald Sargent]

I respectfully suggest that you have missed the point - Gerald.

[Stevo69]

Yes, I think I've said my piece. In the end, I believe imperial will be around for a long time and no amount of arguing for or against will change it in the short term, but thank you all, an interesting topic to be a part of. But don't stop on my behalf. There appears to be plenty of fire in the belly of others left.

[AJames]

Originally Posted by Gerald Sargent

I respectfully suggest that you have missed the point - Gerald.

Gerald,

Sorry, I was just trying to add a little levity to the conversation.

Agreed, you are quite correct when you say; "...one does not build Cathedrals by repeatedly digging up the foundations."

Much of the imperial measures are were based on traditional concepts of everyday life. Ie. horsepower, when horses were the common forms of transport. I don't know without looking at some conversion to convert what horsepower to kilowatts, but at least I can look for it.

I do have a free converter called KoalaCal 4.3.1, which has both MAC and OSX Windows versions. Best of all it is Aussie made and is freeware to use as you like. See http://www.macropodsoftware.com/koalacalc

[Note: I have no personal or financial association with Macropod Software.]

Clearly, conversion is not too difficult, but it would be a lot simpler if we all agreed. As some argue here, this still is a long way off!

Perhaps we should set 01st January 2100 as "Universal Metrication Day" ?

Regards
Andrew

Important Note: There seem to be some slight angst against what I have been saying here, or really in more they way I have been saying things. If I have offended you here I'm truly sorry - that has never been my intent. My only aim is to "keep the conversation lively", so to speak....

[Stevo69]

Originally Posted by AJames

Clearly, conversion is not too difficult, but it would be a lot simpler if we all agreed. As some argue here, this still is a long way off!

Perhaps we should set 01st January 2100 as "Universal Metrication Day" ?

I guess that we currently have generations of people who still use imperial, but the tide is no doubt turning, albeit slowly. Perhaps this topic will be more relevant and gain momentum in another 30 or 40 years, as generations around the world "pass on" and the new generations come along, who know nothing but metric.?? Just an observation! In the interim, I don't think it causes too many dramas?

[M110 (Andrew)]

Metric is the best thing Le Frogges have given to the world. What is wrong with the Yanks, they have had a metric dollar system for hundreds of years, what do they mean they don't understand it. For gods sake even merry old England has figured it out and changed over.

[slice of heaven]

Much of the imperial measures are/were based on traditional concepts of everyday life

Yet the basic everyday units remain, just because they feel comfortable and convenient

And there lies the answer why some people like to use the imperial system
It is comfortable and convenient to use as most everyday calculations only require simple maths you can perform without a calculator. The system was created and based on tangible objects that related to ordinary peoples needs, not those of the desk jockeys that created the metric system wholly based on an intangible length that they miscalculated

Our life still revolves around the imperial units even though we use metric terms. Drop into your hardware store check out the common sizes of materials, 300 600 900 1200 ..... 1 2 3 4 foot
12mm 19mm 25mm 50mm 75mm 100mm .... all calculated around the inch, just given a more complex number.

like say a 200 gram packet of biscuits.

Ever thought that that 200 gram pack of bikkies was once 8ozs? It's pretty easy to skim a few grams off products without people picking up on it, not so with ozs and lb. Same with liquids.

I don't blame the US for sticking to imperial, I wish we had.

[Stevo69]

Originally Posted by slice of heaven

Drop into your hardware store check out the common sizes of materials, 300 600 900 1200 ..... 1 2 3 4 foot
12mm 19mm 25mm 50mm 75mm 100mm .... all calculated around the inch, just given a more complex number.

Something else I was taught years ago in the timber industry was that 1 foot (12 inches) can be easily divisible by 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, etc. Any we all still use and talk in fractions even today. And when using fractions of an inch, you have the best of both worlds: imperial or metric, i.e. thousandths of inch, which is still common in engineering circles.

[okiscopey (Mike)]

I agree with the proposal to make US imports conform to Australian metric measures.

In fact I think we should go the extra mile and make it law. Some would consider this idea just a rod for our own backs, but it’s time to end the need to fathom out the mysteries of imperial measures. The glorious outcome will far outweigh the lengthy legal processes, the tons of scorn heaped upon us by the US, acres of unfavourable newsprint by their journalists, and sacks of mail to editors.

Let’s face it, the link is clear. The US continues to be the main problem in this matter, and I have no scruples in suggesting we need to rid ourselves of this chain around our necks. For too long Australians have hidden their lights under a bushel. Its time to do the hard yards and get this thing on the road. It’s not as if we’re putting ourselves up as guinea pigs, most of the world is already metricated and enjoying the benefits.

Even Federal Treasurer, Peter Costello, has commented on ‘total metrication’. “Stone the crows, mate” he grinned at a question posed recently “there’s no need to take a bl***dy pole on this, everyone wants it, and there’s plenty in the coffers to foot the bill.”

Given their size and power, the Americans may initially take our tough new laws with a grain of salt, but they’re not in a different league: our minerals boom and expertise in making waterproof outer garments give us some juicy carats to dangle in front of them. Yes, it’s time to stand on our own feet and show them we’re not green around the gills.

Readers may scoff at these proposals, but, even if achieved inch-by-inch, I have no doubt I’ll see a totally metric Australia - and the US complying with our import laws - well before I fall off the perch (due to my twelve-pints-a-night drinking habit).

[DJDD]

perhaps the thread should end with okiscopey's post?

[AJames]

While looking for information about the US adopting some kind of version of the metric system, I came across an interesting page.
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm

What I also found, as listed in the last of this generic system was NASA, which has adopted the system carte-blanch over the national and governmental directives. As I assumed, the adoption was based on the disaster and loss of he Columba when it re-entered the Earth's atmosphere during 2003, but NASA has adopted the system, where it is said ; "Although NASA has ostensibly used the metric system since about 1990, English units linger on in much of the U.S. aerospace industry" - though this adoption seems to have changed in NASA and US aerospace industry. Although this states this is for the Moon, I believe this will be ratified in 2009 to meet with the ESA and Russian metric standards adopted for space missions from these countries. NASA is clearly doing this for safety, and the Moon might just be the first steps to integration to the rest of the world. You can read about this at; http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...htm?list864576 , which also have a map showing the non-compliant nations.

It seems, regarding future metric deadlines:

Before the end of 2009, the U.S. should allow metric-only packaging by amending the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA). This would be a good step towards meeting EU requirements for SI-only labels in 2009.
As of 2009 December 31, aAll products sold in Europe (with limited exceptions) will be required to have only SI-metric units on their labels. Dual labeling will not be permitted. (See http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/fpla.html .
Implementation of the labeling directive, previously 1999 December 31, was extended by the EU Commission for 10 years, giving more time for companies to comply and for U.S. regulations to allow metric-only labeling on consumer products.

Another interesting article on labelling requirements appears at;
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dykt.htm#europe

As I said before, should Australia be adopting such initatives?

Andrew

Note : A Metric Act in the US was suggested as for back as 1866 - exactly 100 years when Australia has adopted the system - and still the US has not!!


Note2:
KILL THREADS
I really think "Kill Threads" should be considered by the Moderators as totally unacceptable, as DJDD has said "perhaps the thread should end with okiscopey's post?" I think those who don't like the train of thought or ideas of contributors here should let thinks come to an end naturally than killing any ideas of rational free thought. While some do perhaps extend threads for the sake of doing so, it is important to encourage others into contributing. Furthermore, if you don't like what is being said nor what is being implied, then you should just ignore the thread yourself and not retract from the views of others.
Should so-called "kill threads" be immediately deleted?

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by AJames

Note2:
KILL THREADS
I really think "Kill Threads" should be considered by the Moderators as totally unacceptable...

Sometimes people kill threads without knowing it.

[Stevo69]

AJames, I actually thought okiscopey's post was quite cleverly written and an appropriate bookend to this topic. And don't stress. No-one is trying to "stifle your train of thought or ideas". It was posted at an appropriate time in the post where there has been a decent and sensible amount of discussion. I agree that maybe for now, the topic had reached a natural conclusion, until the next time. If you wish to continue on with the topic, feel free to. I'm sure it could go one forever. I, personally have said all I can about this topic and have more pressing things in my life to fill my time than worrying about the future of the metric system. Maybe you'll get more interested members posting in the future. I'm not familiar with this term "Kill threads" in forums but if you're referring to rocket boy's comment, I took it as a simple observation on okiscopey's post, so don't take it personally.

However you are implying that you wish Moderators to step in an delete "kill threads", which seems to go against your arguement of others attempting to "stifle your train of thought or ideas".

...and we used to wear onions on our belts, which was the style at the time....

[AJames]

Rocket Boy

You are quite correct in this viewpoint. but saying, as many other threads though out IceinSpace and many others similar sites that say "perhaps the thread should end..." is probably unnecessary. While I agree, others, probably like me, find open discussions sometimes irritating and uninteresting, at least those wanting to contribute should be able too...
Regardless, I'm somehow interested to see what others say about this seemingly common phenomena...

AJames

Note: My purpose in contributing to this thread again was not motivated by this issue. This note was really just a passing observation of seemingly common social behaviour exhibited by blog sites...

[RB (Andrew)]

BTW my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just an observation.

FWIW believe me, as Moderators, the last thing we want to do is intervene in any thread.
We don't purposely troll through the posts to see who we can delete or which threads to close.

[AJames]

Originally Posted by Stevo69

AJames, I actually thought okiscopey's post was quite cleverly written and an appropriate bookend to this topic. It was posted at an appropriate time in the post where there has been a decent and sensible amount of discussion. If you wish to continue on with the topic, feel free to. I'm sure it could go one forever. I, personally have said all a can about the topic and have more pressing things in my life to fill my time than worrying about the metric system. Maybe you'll get more interested members posting in the future. I'm not familiar with this term "Kill threads" in forums but if you're refering to rocket boy's comment, I took it as a simple comment onokiscopey's post, so don't take it personally.

Actually, I thought okiscopey's quotes were brilliant composed and said... I actually had to read it several times to get the meanings. I haven't taken any of this personally at all... This is just an observation of contributions to posts and how they can be stopped. It has nothing really to do with the gust of the comments made within this thread - which has actually stimulated to look a little closer to the problem...

AJames

Note: In fact, I'm just trying to kill one of the worst seeing and transparency night I've seen in Sydney for almost a decade or so...

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

The problem I see with a thread like this (don't worry, it's not the only one, so I'm not singeling you out) is that it has said what it has to say and has worn out. It has become the same old thing being said over and over.

And in the end . . . it achieves diddly-squat!

You can rant & rave in here for the next 10 years, but it won't make the U.S. go metric, or us old farts change to using ONLY Metric. So it becomes a boring read, coz it is just repeating itself now.

But no doubt you will keep going on about it. That's your prerogative. But the subject has worn out its welcome coz it will achieve nothing.

The results in your own poll above tells volumes.