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  #81  
Old 06-02-2007, 05:54 AM
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Here is an interesting idea. ShepHydro DESALINATION STATION is a Seawater Pumped-storage Power Desalinator, an idea brought about by the need to solve a particular problem - desalinate water for Sydney without generating greenhouse gas. I like to call that the biggest green battery in the world. http://www.shephydro.com/ and Multi Purpose Seawater Power Station http://www.seawaterpower.com/seawaterpower/ Also desalination plants can be built next to power stations so they use the heat from the power stations. This is much better than separate desalination plants. Mick, I agree that gas fired power stations can be used to provide the base load, they are cleaner than coal or nuclear, and they can easily be turned on and off. Regarding streetlights, the driver’s eye cannot adjust to rapid changes in brightness. It is better to have faint and even lighting than bright areas with dark areas in between. Artificial moonlight is bright enough. Regarding climate change I would rather believe 2500 experts than 2500 armchair critics. Some parts of Antarctica might not be getting warmer but that doesn’t prove there is no climate change. Read the IPCC summary for policymakers at http://www.ipcc.ch/index.html
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  #82  
Old 06-02-2007, 09:56 AM
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Great links Glen.
I found this in another forum where the subject is being discussed and post the latest input from a memeber ... another ëxpert" ??? or another opinion??? I dont know anymore.

A prospectus for big government
Lorne Gunter, National Post
Published: Monday, February 05, 2007

Imagine you find out that a large corporation has produced its annual report before its audit is complete. Long before its outside accountants have signed off on revenues and expenses for the year, the company has issued its official annual statement claiming everything is rosy.

Oh, and the report was written by the company's sales department rather than its finance office.

Securities commissions would be all over them. Exchanges would stop trading their shares.

Or how about a mining company that issued a prospectus claiming it had found a rich vein of ore even before the mineral samples had been tested?

"Charlatans! Frauds! Crooks!," you'd scream. And you'd be right.

So how come so many otherwise smart people are eager to swallow whole the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's global warming report when the scientific studies behind it will not be released until May at the earliest?

The 21-page document, officially called the Summary for Policy Makers, was released by the IPCC last Friday, and leaked far and wide for a week before that to ensure maximum public relations impact.

But the scientific reports on which the summary is allegedly based won't be available for months. Accepting the conclusions of the summary before being able to see the science behind it is just like buying shares in a company based on its premature annual report or speculative ore claims.

The IPCC summary isn't even written by scientists, at least not in their capacity as scientists. It is written by a few politicians, bureaucrats and environmental activists chosen by the UN agency, some of whom also happen to be scientists.

And the vaunted meeting in Paris last week that approved the summary's final draft, the meeting most of the world's media so breathlessly told us represented the consensus of 2,500 leading scientists? Well, most of the attendees with votes were the representatives of their national governments. That some were also scientists was purely coincidental. The IPCC buries its scientific findings for release months after the fact; has politicians, bureaucrats and environmentalists write its report; and -- surprise! surprise! -- ends up coming to conclusions that can only lead to bigger government, and government funding for environmental scientists.

In effect, the IPCC summary is a prospectus for big government written by big government's sales department.

And don't expect the full truth to come out even when the 1,600 pages of science are finally released. The IPCC has a habit of censuring the work of scientists who disagree with the global alarmist orthodoxy. It has also instructed scientists still working on their academic contributions to the final report that those contributions must be modified after publication of the summary so as to "ensure consistency with" the summary's conclusions.

It is the political tail wagging the scientific dog.

In the corporate world, this would be called a scam. News producers, editors and reporters would see right through it. In the environmental world, the IPCC is hailed as the definitive word, and most media fall to their knees before its collective wisdom without raising so much as a suspicion.

Friday's summary actually contained some good news -- if one simply looks at the few hard scientific observations it contained and disregards the hell-in-a-hand-basket hyperbole.

For instance, since its last report in 2001, the IPCC has revised downward its projections for temperature and sea-level rise.

Six years ago, the "scientific consensus" was that the Earth could warm by 10.4 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100. This time, the IPCC thinks it will rise by no more than 7.2 degrees F -- a 30% reduction. And sea levels are now projected to rise by no more than 17 inches, half the rise of 34 inches in 2001's forecast.

This is the forth IPCC report, and the third in a row in which the doom and- disaster predictions have been revised downward.

The IPCC should be saying that the more we learn about global warming, the less we believe its consequences will be disastrous. But that doesn't feed the global big-government industry. And it would make it hard for environmental special interests to continue raising billions each year.

So just as Tony Blair's government was accused of having "sexed up" intelligence on Iraq's WMDs to justify invasion, the IPCC and the environmentalists have sexed up predictions on climate disaster to reinforce their self interests.

© National Post 2007

I wonder what he really thinks
alex
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  #83  
Old 06-02-2007, 10:32 AM
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Who controls the National Post? Why do they promote this view? What's in it for them? Do they have big shares in oil or coal companies? I reckon beware of media moguls, multinationals and big government. I think the scientists would have said so if they disagreed with The IPCC summary. Saudi Arabia didn't like it because it threated their oil industry and Exxon-Mobil tried to get them to make their findings more oil friendly. I don't think the scientists are reducing the threat by changing the temperature and sea level forecasts, they are just getting more precise. I hope we use more green energy and less oil, coal and nuclear to power the future.

Last edited by glenc; 06-02-2007 at 11:06 AM.
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  #84  
Old 06-02-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
I found this in another forum where the subject is being discussed and post the latest input from a memeber ... another ëxpert" ??? or another opinion??? I dont know anymore.
alex
Thanks for that Alex.

You DO know anymore!

"Facts' that are parroted in the media and by pseudo-environmentalists will not stand the test of time, common sense and scientific evidence.
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  #85  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:38 AM
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Link to an article by Lorne Gunter mentioned by xelasnave is here (apologies for split URL):

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/c...l?id=34b2c4eb-
1788-4242-a04d-eaa286afa9c7&p=2

Here's an extract highlighting what's not being reported in the papers:

“ … the United Nations' global warming spin factory will switch into high gear with the release of the (IPCC’s) latest report.

Actually, the spin will come mostly in the Summary for Policy Makers.

Expect the summary -- which is not written by scientists, but by politicians and activists -- to be highly alarmist. It will almost certainly insist that since the last report in 2001, proof of a coming man-made climate disaster has mounted and the scientific consensus has grown stronger.

It will infer the only solution is a massive remaking of industrialized society presided over by international bureaucrats and environmentalists.

Even the scientific papers in the IPCC report will have been doctored a bit. In past versions, scientists who have refused to swallow whole the orthodoxy that Earth is going to hell … have been dropped from the committees that write and review the IPCC report's individual chapters.

Their doubts, no matter how substantial and well-documented -- have been expunged from the final drafts.

You've no doubt heard there is an international scientific consensus that the planet is warming, that the warming will likely be catastrophic and it is being caused by human-produced emissions. The IPCC shows how this vaunted consensus is reached, not by getting all scientists to agree, but by defaming or ignoring those with opinions and research cast doubt on the dogma.

That's not science, it's shunning, the ancient religious punishment for heretics.

If you saw Al Gore's propaganda film, An Inconvenient Truth, you may be familiar with Naomi Oreskes, the University of California social scientist who claimed to have found 100% agreement among climate scientists. In a much-quoted article in Science magazine, Ms. Oreskes claimed that of the 928 scientific paper's whose abstracts she reviewed, not a single one disagreed with or raised objections to the man-made warming theory.

Not reported though -- because it doesn't reinforce the climate catechism -- was a review of Ms. Oreskes' report by British scientist Benny Peiser. He found that Ms. Oreskes had failed to examine nearly 11,000 other climate reports that may or may not have supported her conclusion. And even among the 928 she carefully selected, only 2% "wholly endorsed the view that human activity is driving global warming," while several "actually opposed that conclusion," even though Ms. Oreskes claimed their support, too.

Remember headlines late last year such as "Greenhouse gases help make 2006 warmest year ever"? What didn't get reported was the fact those doom-laden records were based on only the first 11 months of last year. When the temperatures for December were added to the mix last week, 2006 turned out to be the coolest year in the past five.”
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  #86  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:40 AM
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Thanks Glen. One should never ask a question that one does not know the answer . Sorry I was a little manipulative . If only everyone could stop and ask similar questions when presented with the news .
AND thanks Okiscopey but I say I dont know anymore er should add than I already know .
alex
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  #87  
Old 06-02-2007, 12:02 PM
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Have you read State of Fear? http://www.crichton-official.com/fear/ Why Politicized Science is Dangerous (Excerpted from State of Fear) "Imagine that there is a new scientific theory that warns of an impending crisis, and points to a way out. This theory quickly draws support from leading scientists, politicians and celebrities around the world. Research is funded by distinguished philanthropies, and carried out at prestigious universities. The crisis is reported frequently in the media. The science is taught in college and high school classrooms. I don't mean global warming. I'm talking about another theory, which rose to prominence a century ago." An interesting read about Eugenics. Glen
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  #88  
Old 06-02-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenc View Post
Here is an interesting idea. ShepHydro DESALINATION STATION is a Seawater Pumped-storage Power Desalinator, an idea brought about by the need to solve a particular problem - desalinate water for Sydney without generating greenhouse gas. I like to call that the biggest green battery in the world. http://www.shephydro.com/ and Multi Purpose Seawater Power Station http://www.seawaterpower.com/seawaterpower/ Also desalination plants can be built next to power stations so they use the heat from the power stations. This is much better than separate desalination plants.
Interesting! I didn't realise until now that the Sydney region already has a pumped-storage scheme:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoalhaven_Scheme
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  #89  
Old 06-02-2007, 01:43 PM
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I would like to take this opportunity to thank Coca Cola and other soft drink companies by putting so much CO2 into water.. a planet saving effort I recon.
alex
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  #90  
Old 06-02-2007, 01:56 PM
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Breaking news...... any one want some winners at Randwick?

NSW Labor to build desalination plant
A 125 megalitre per day desalination plant will be built at Kurnell in southern Sydney if the NSW Labor government is re-elected in March.

Premier Morris Iemma announced that two preferred consortia had been asked to tender for the construction of the plant which will be built when dam levels drop to 30 per cent.

"Desalination should be ready for summer '09 under this process," Water Utilities Minster David Campbell told reporters

I think the plan has been about a little longer given the research the outgoing (leaving not friendly) premier put into it.

Havent found what will power it yet .
But I did notice a news flash that the PM has made a statement in support of nuclear power I wonder if there is any link between the two .
alex
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  #91  
Old 06-02-2007, 02:00 PM
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Our mob is no doubt better than that mob from up North making them drink sewerage . Its your choice voters sea water or sewerage... now we have a choice thank goodness .
alex
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  #92  
Old 06-02-2007, 02:54 PM
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I would like to take this opportunity to thank Coca Cola and other soft drink companies by putting so much CO2 into water.. a planet saving effort I recon.
alex

That's a crackup
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  #93  
Old 06-02-2007, 05:35 PM
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But what happens to the co2 after they drink it?????
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  #94  
Old 07-02-2007, 08:06 PM
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I would rather believe 2500 experts than 2500 armchair critics. Some parts of Antarctica might not be getting warmer but that doesn’t prove there is no climate change. Read the IPCC summary for policymakers at http://www.ipcc.ch/index.html

2500 experts?

care to name them Glen?

here is one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16948233/site/newsweek/

I don't think he will be getting a gig at the IPCC next year.
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  #95  
Old 08-02-2007, 12:02 AM
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I read the report this morning that GlenC posted, Pretty convicing stuff !
When the models developed several years ago a validated by the data collected since & the factors that are often talked about to debunk climate change, are taken into account in the report.
we are in deep, deep do do
But the challenge comes not with the facts of what is happening, but what we do about it.
The Developed world is in a position to act & reduce greenhouse emissions.
But how about the developing world
When you think about it China for instance is growing because of the OUR demand for cheap consumer goods, & our western corporations setting up cheap labor factories in China.
So where does the responsibility lie ?
While we as individuals can make some difference, unchecked growth in consumption & population is the real factor that will affect global climate change.
So who will act to limit that ???
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  #96  
Old 08-02-2007, 04:30 AM
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We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend there is no climate change but we might have trouble denying it when the sea level rises and the sand gets flooded. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...53-601,00.html "Consensus" was the stumbling block. The report had to reflect scientific consensus, a tricky process considering the complete report, Climate Change 2007, was written by 485 experts and reviewed by 2500 peers from 130 countries. It drew on more than 6000 peer-reviewed scientific papers. The report then required line-by-line approval from governments, each keen to protect their own interests.

Last edited by glenc; 08-02-2007 at 04:50 AM.
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  #97  
Old 08-02-2007, 06:12 AM
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I think that such a process Glen simply means that it was open to corruption of the inputs. Clearly someone has an axe to grind and it would be easy to control the content of the report. It is easy to control mob thought because humans cant handle being the odd man out.. fear of peer pressure do it.. I have seen it over and over and if you want to control a group pick out the person causing the others to think different and make a fool of them, hold them up so the others can ridicule them.. no I dont buy the report no one would put up that much cash and not know the result..no one. Already the PM is using a mob rule approach to this with the use of the words "not real" ..what is there no room for another opinion? not from someone who is "not real" I guess. That’s what politics is all about controlling events and people and facts so as to arrange things to produce a result that you seek and then stepping back into the shadows to let all think it was a committee result. Obviously the report is subject to corruption at many levels.
If one asks who is behind the push to make climate change a matter that is front of mind and simple looks it is easy to see where the push comes from... in my view the USA, one can ask why and there are many answers that pop into ones head that will make you worry that you are becoming a conspiracy theorist.. However it is what is being done to solve the problem humans did or did not create... nuclear power is on the table, if one thinks the introduction of nuclear power can solve the problem they are 1. Either fooled by the hype or 2. involved in the conspiracy to push it forward.
It may be a matter coming from an attempt by the USA to appear less reliant on oil, think of the upswing in alternate power when the first lines of cars appeared waiting for petrol 20? years ago.
We won’t be able to stop it if we are causing it but someone will profit from the fear I believe it’s like Noah and the Ark story we have a message that the sea will rise lets build boats not umbrellas.
One could be silly and try and stop the climate one could think one can change human behavior or one could be rational and ask where does the money trail lead who stands to benefit... Someone has their hand up the politicians back making their lips move whilst they play ventriloquist.
If the pollies are serious pass laws restricting consumption of power like in the second world war, the problem is controlling the market not controlling the climate.
We are being conned.. we are simply being conned irrespective of what view one takes of the facts we are being conned.
Personally I am sick of being conned by vested interest groups who think you are stupid enough to swallow their crap as they shovel it in one distasteful morsel after another..
So what if the seas rise some places certain lands become desert !!!things change, humans need to grow up and face the facts... we are recent arrivals and the place was not and never was made for us and we shall become extint just as many species have before us.. Can we last as long as the spider at 20 million years I doubt it.
alex
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  #98  
Old 08-02-2007, 09:55 AM
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I'm new here and just wondering the reason the IPCC blames Global Warming on us.
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  #99  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:08 PM
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Its a small world on the net ..Welcome welcome welcome.
You probably know what I think, so I will let someone else who doesnt suspect a conspiracy one way or the other to answer with some scientific facts....doing some consulting so I gotta go put on a suit so I look the part. Love these gigs where I get recognition to tell someone what they are doing is wrong and they had best do it my way.
alex
alex.
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  #100  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:39 PM
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I'm new here and just wondering the reason the IPCC blames Global Warming on us.
Just in case the folks not following this thread miss you - welcome Tiroch to IIS!

(I wonder if a first post is 'automatically' seen by the moderators?)

To answer your question, 'GW' is blamed on humans as it's believed to be a consequence of the big rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide in recent decades from our industrial activity. (Hope you weren't wanting anything more detailed than this!)

Nobody would deny there's been big and small increases in the Earth's temperature in the historical and geological past, so the current debate is actually about 'human-induced global warming' - a more accurate term.

I'm a long time sceptic and believe h-i GW is largely a beat-up and will not pose any significant threat (except if we are forced to cut back on energy production), but I won't say any more about it here.

Look back through the previous posts to see what people have said. There are lots of links to lots of very long articles!

P.S. Are you here for the astronomy or global warming?
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