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  #81  
Old 10-09-2013, 06:46 AM
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multiweb (Marc)
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Originally Posted by strongmanmike View Post
The new govermnet has little to do but they seem to think it is much better to pay mothers earning $150 000 pa their full salary for 6 months to stay home with their new babies I mean reeeaallly....?
Well a mum who clocks $150Gs a year pays enough taxes for the system to cover her maternity leave. Good on her. I have no problem with that.

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That was no comment, my lip is bitten again
Watch that lip again mate. It starts hanging down.
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  #82  
Old 10-09-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by gary View Post

Today electricity underpins nearly everything we do.
However, predictably, there were some groups who opposed it at the time.
Electricity is an essential service such as water, sewerage to some extent. Fast(er) internet is far from it.
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  #83  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:24 AM
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Well a mum who clocks $150Gs a year pays enough taxes for the system to cover her maternity leave. Good on her. I have no problem with that.
Does she? How many will be the partner of a business owner who becomes an executive assistant for whatever the minimum service period will be? If there is a minimum service period, who knows? We know SFA about the new government's policies because they weren't shown to us until just before the election, if at all. Not that the other side was any better, there was no real political debate in this country, just a popularity contest, much like most of the crap TV "reality" shows.

It looks like I'll be means tested out of a 30% private health insurance rebate, which a previous LNP government essentially forced me to take out (the private health insurance, I was happy to pay more to Medicare, but no I have to prop up some private health insurance company). Now someone can get paid parental leave without any sort of means testing?

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Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
Electricity is an essential service such as water, sewerage to some extent. Fast(er) internet is far from it.
I think that the point Gary was trying to make is that when electrical connections were in their infancy, the connection of electricity was not considered essential in much the same way that high speed internet is not considered essential now, but may be in the future. Oh and we're coming around to disconnect your sewerage as you don't think it's essential.

Cheers
Stuart
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  #84  
Old 10-09-2013, 08:42 AM
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Does she?
Taxed at 45c in a dollar? You bet she does.

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How many will be the partner of a business owner who becomes an executive assistant for whatever the minimum service period will be?
LOL. I hear this one all the time from my mates. That's how employed people think. Put that on the business. The business takes care of everything right? Who makes the money? The business or people working for it? In your example the partner will generate enough income to pay her a wage and pay group tax. So it's still money put in the system.


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If there is a minimum service period, who knows?
Ideally there should be one. Like sick leave.

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Originally Posted by rat156 View Post
We know SFA about the new government's policies because they weren't shown to us until just before the election, if at all. Not that the other side was any better, there was no real political debate in this country, just a popularity contest, much like most of the crap TV "reality" shows.

It looks like I'll be means tested out of a 30% private health insurance rebate, which a previous LNP government essentially forced me to take out (the private health insurance, I was happy to pay more to Medicare, but no I have to prop up some private health insurance company). Now someone can get paid parental leave without any sort of means testing?
Too early to tell what they'll deliver on their promises. They're all pollies. They have a huge baggage to deal with now. Give them time. We'll see where it's all heading. Cutting spendings is good. For a little while until the water clears.


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Originally Posted by rat156 View Post
I think that the point Gary was trying to make is that when electrical connections were in their infancy, the connection of electricity was not considered essential in much the same way that high speed internet is not considered essential now, but may be in the future. Oh and we're coming around to disconnect your sewerage as you don't think it's essential.
I know that but I pointed out faster Internet is not a necessity right now. Some people in the bush have septic tanks and are not linked to the grid. That's what I meant. I don't expect you to pick up my s||t.
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  #85  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:42 AM
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Gday Marc

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Taxed at 45c in a dollar? You bet she does.
Not many families where the wife earns that sort of money pay full tax,
as they can afford to get around the edges via clever accountants.
What would be nicer is if it was based on say an average declared "taxable income" over the preceding 2 years, vs current pre tax "salary".
That said, i still dont see why i should be paying to directly support the kids of people on that sort of income.
If the govt really wants to do something, make having kids cheaper.

Andrew
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  #86  
Old 10-09-2013, 09:57 AM
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Sorry if this is going a little off topic. Last post for me on this subject. Promise.

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Gday Marc

Not many families where the wife earns that sort of money pay full tax,
as they can afford to get around the edges via clever accountants.
Hi Andrew, the ATO doesn't believe in clever accounting. Trust me on this. If you show $150k as income you pay or you get fined. Hefty fines + interests. Seen it all. To employ somebody at $150k gross + super + group tax you need to generate a lot of income which will be shaved by GST as well. So a lot of money is involved and going back into the system in various form.

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What would be nicer is if it was based on say an average declared "taxable income" over the preceding 2 years, vs current pre tax "salary".
Yes, that would be one way to look at it too.

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Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
That said, i still dont see why i should be paying to directly support the kids of people on that sort of income.
Because they generate a lot of money in taxes in the first place so they do contribute for a significant part of their maternity leave.


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If the govt really wants to do something, make having kids cheaper.
Kids will never be cheap. In the long run they cost you more and more.
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  #87  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:49 AM
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Not true at all. My wife earns that sort of money - as do I, and just about half of Western Australia. The suggestion that everybody in our position tries in anyway to pay less tax than we are obliged to is a pretty offensive sweeping kind of generalization. Once you factor in the outrageous cost of living in Perth, the cost of daycare, and Australia's relatively high tax rate, I would be better off living in just about any other country on half my income and my wife not working at all. Fortunately, many of us choose to stay here and continue paying tax. I know my wife wants to work, and thee aren't many who could do her job as well as she does.
If it makes you feel any better I'm no happier a person now than when I lived on a postgraduate stipend.
The sort of people you're talking about aren't paid salaries. They own the businesses.


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Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Gday Marc



Not many families where the wife earns that sort of money pay full tax,
as they can afford to get around the edges via clever accountants.
What would be nicer is if it was based on say an average declared "taxable income" over the preceding 2 years, vs current pre tax "salary".
That said, i still dont see why i should be paying to directly support the kids of people on that sort of income.
If the govt really wants to do something, make having kids cheaper.

Andrew
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  #88  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:03 AM
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I can see points for and against paid maternity leave. Its proponents say other developed countries have it, and I'm sure they do.
But it has to be looked at in the context of all the other middle class welfare in this country, which has been brought about by blatant vote-buying from both sides of politics.
When I was raising my kids, we got absolutely zilch in government assistance, and endured 19% interest rates as well-yet we survived and coped as did everyone else at the time. We also paid higher marginal rates of tax than exist now.
I may be retired now, but in the last few years of my working career, it bugged me that I was expected to pay taxes for middle class welfare that was not available to my generation, and at the same time listen to the recipients of this middle class welfare complain about having to provide aged pensions to my generation as they retired.
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  #89  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
I may be retired now, but in the last few years of my working career, it bugged me that I was expected to pay taxes for middle class welfare that was not available to my generation, and at the same time listen to the recipients of this middle class welfare complain about having to provide aged pensions to my generation as they retired.
The point you make and that everyone should accept, is that we pay taxes to provide services and infrastructure that our society needs to function fairly. We don't pay taxes as some kind of investment in our personal welfare, but as an investment in a fair society. And despite all the whinging that goes on, particularly around elections, we have a pretty fair and equitable society, with comparatively minor problems. We should be more grateful for that, if you ask me.
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  #90  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chiaroscuro View Post
The point you make and that everyone should accept, is that we pay taxes to provide services and infrastructure that our society needs to function fairly. We don't pay taxes as some kind of investment in our personal welfare, but as an investment in a fair society. And despite all the whinging that goes on, particularly around elections, we have a pretty fair and equitable society, with comparatively minor problems. We should be more grateful for that, if you ask me.
I wasn't talking about infrastructure and services-I was talking about middle class welfare!
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  #91  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
I may be retired now, but in the last few years of my working career, it bugged me that I was expected to pay taxes for middle class welfare that was not available to my generation, and at the same time listen to the recipients of this middle class welfare complain about having to provide aged pensions to my generation as they retired.
Furthermore, you are deprived of retirement income because the 'have everything now' generation needs low interest rates to afford the loans for their overpriced and oversized new houses - all orchestrated by the politicians and bankers via supply of cheap money.
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  #92  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
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I wasn't talking about infrastructure and services-I was talking about middle class welfare!
I agree - but the last government wound back middle class welfare, like the Private Health Rebate for high income earners, and the baby bonus, to the deafening screams of the recipients. Thats exactly the point I'm trying to make.
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  #93  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:44 AM
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Thumbs up

Gentleman, just a friendly reminder that the thread is wandering way off topic.

The thread topic is broadband infrastructure.
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  #94  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:47 AM
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Fraudband

Wow struggling on $300K a year, that's a good one.
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  #95  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chiaroscuro View Post
I agree - but the last government wound back middle class welfare, like the Private Health Rebate for high income earners, and the baby bonus, to the deafening screams of the recipients. Thats exactly the point I'm trying to make.
I would like to see it wound back even more, but once it is given, it is very hard to take it away-"the deafening screams of the recipients"
It would be fairer to reduce taxes-that way all working people benefit, instead of a targeted few.
But given the state of the nation's infrastructure, perhaps it would be better to spend the money on that.
And don't start me on private health insurance-why should people pay a Medicare levy, private health insurance premiums and still get massive hospital bills?
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  #96  
Old 10-09-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gary View Post
Gentleman, just a friendly reminder that the thread is wandering way off topic.

The thread topic is broadband infrastructure.
You are right Gary-we are off topic, and I shall desist from further comment
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  #97  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
I would like to see it wound back even more, but once it is given, it is very hard to take it away-"the deafening screams of the recipients"
It would be fairer to reduce taxes-that way all working people benefit, instead of a targeted few.
But given the state of the nation's infrastructure, perhaps it would be better to spend the money on that.
Everyone has an opinion on where taxes should be spent and for some, the NBN has a high priority. I'm not really across the economic advantages of the NBN, although I can see advantages for Australia, particularly in areas like remote area medical care. But I don't think its benefit should be assessed solely as "what does it do to help me?" but "what does it do to help society?".
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  #98  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:49 PM
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Gday Marc

Quote:
Because they generate a lot of money in taxes in the first place so they do contribute for a significant part of their maternity leave.
So if i was earning 150K per year and paying lots of tax,
but my idea of having a "baby" was buying a new supercar each year,
lots of money still goes back into the economy,
( more exotic car taxes, rego, insurance, speeding fines :-) )
but i dont expect the govt to pay me to do it.

Having children is a choice and with that comes a responsibility.
( and a drop in living standards for a few years )
This non means tested maternity leave is socialism gone mad,
whereas at least the NBN applies to everyone equally.

Andrew
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  #99  
Old 10-09-2013, 12:54 PM
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The argument is simple folks. A single optical fibre has a theoretical bandwidth that is about a million times more than ALL the radio frequencies. The limit currently is the opto/electronic bits at the ends of the fibres. So practically currently it is about 300,000 times the bandwidth. This will be easily improved by just changing the bits at the ends of the fibres.
The copper network is problematic. Currently to just maintain it, is costing more than a billion dollars per year. This is not being done!
In the laboratory twisted pair brand new copper will give reasonable speeds. If you are more than km from an exchange or node your speed will be lucky to be better than 12 to 15 Mb/s . That is mega bits not bytes.
For those of you that think your phone works with wireless think again. All the towers are connected by optical fibre. With the NBN your wireless modem will work faster than a local phone tower with your smart phone.
I have HFC copper internet at 30Mb/s . All my younger friends with their smart phones can download and upload for free through my wireless modem at far higher speeds than 4G (16Mb/s). I have a limit of 200GB.
If every household had fibre they could allocate spare bandwidth for phones and mobile devices even for others so taking the load off the main mobile phone system.
We do not know what bandwidth we will need even ten years from now.
I can remember the good old days of 48k modems.

Bert

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  #100  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chiaroscuro View Post
Everyone has an opinion on where taxes should be spent and for some, the NBN has a high priority.
Hi Luke,

A very important point to note that it is equity funded not tax funded.

Please see my post here on the topic -
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...2&postcount=74

To fund things such as health, defence and education, governments draw
down from the pool of taxation.

As you can appreciate, when you build a hospital or a submarine and pay for it
with taxation dollars, there is no direct financial return on your investment on the
balance sheet. In other words, you don't get your tax dollars back.
We, as a society, are the end-users of the hospital or submarine.

To fund things such as a national broadband network though, you don't need to
draw on taxation dollars. The Australian Government has one neat trick up its
sleeve which that they can write an IOU on a blank piece of paper and investors are
eager to exchange cash for them. I am speaking of course of AAA rated bonds.

The government says, thank you for your thousand dollars, I will pay you
back in say 10 years at an interest rate of 4.1%.

The government then loans the thousand dollars to its own company, NBN Co.

NBN Co uses it to provide a broadband connection to someone. Perhaps your house.
Perhaps the headquarters of the Commonwealth Bank in Sydney.

You use some data in posts on IceInSpace and elsewhere and you pay your
ISP your monthly fee. They in turn pay NBN a part of that for use of the network.

The Commonwealth Bank on the other hand uses lots of bandwidth and they pay their
ISP obviously much more than your monthly bill would be. Once again, the NBN
is paid by the ISP for the bandwidth.

Since an enormous percentage of the country's communications will flow
through the fibers of the NBN (keep in mind even wireless mobile services
route their data from cellular towers over optical fiber), the revenue stream will
be significant and the plan of course is that it will make a profit. The profit then
goes initially to repaying those who have provided seed equity funding, namely
the government and some private investors. Plus they pay interest of, say, 7%.

The government then gets the bond back and pays the owner their $1000 plus
4%.

So there is no "opportunity cost" in the sense that you are not drawing
from the same taxation funding pool that you would use for say schools or
hospitals or roads or defense.

Of course, equity funding is what companies do all the time to bootstrap themselves.

So you may then ask, why not fund it entirely privately?

The answer is that the return on investment (ROI) is seen as too low for most
private investors compared to other places than can invest their money.
For example, say you have $1000 burning a hole in your pocket. You look around
and might decide that you can get a better return on Commonwealth bank shares,
or mining stocks or fixed term deposits and you want to turn your money around
in a shorter period of time.

However, when governments invest in broadband infrastructure they might
get only a small return on the investment directly on the balance sheet, but the
increased economic activity it helps bring about also brings them additional tax
revenue.

So the government investing in the NBN didn't cost you anything. You paid
no additional tax. You get a free fibre connection. There was no opportunity
cost in the sense that money was not diverted from schools or hospitals.
In fact, over time, your tax bill becomes lower because the network
helps more efficient delivery of health and education services and the profits
it makes from large users goes into consolidated revenue.

The biggest risk is that suddenly computers start getting slower and individuals
and businesses no longer have a need to communicate in the future.

The timing is perfect because the interest rates on much sought after AAA rated
Australian bonds is low.

Last edited by gary; 10-09-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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