What's wrong with copper? - Page 4

supernova1965 (Warren) · #61 24-10-2010, 03:09 PM

Come on how did we get from Copper wire versus Fibre Optic to racism can't we have a discussion without this kind of thing happening no wonder the threads get locked.

bobson (Bob) · #62 24-10-2010, 04:16 PM

I agree with Matt.
We have members from all around the world coming to this forum.

bob

RickS (Rick) · #63 24-10-2010, 06:31 PM

I didn't take Peter's comment as racist at all in the sense that Matt did. I interpreted "Better health services (a radiologist reporting on my X-rays from Pakistan doesn't fit this model)" as meaning he doesn't want important health services outsourced to a foreign country...

bobson (Bob) · #64 24-10-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickS

I didn't take Peter's comment as racist at all in the sense that Matt did. I interpreted "Better health services (a radiologist reporting on my X-rays from Pakistan doesn't fit this model)" as meaning he doesn't want important health services outsourced to a foreign country...

Rick,

This is public forum. There is no need to explain things this way.
There is no need to "interpret" things.

I am not saying Peter is racist. Imagine if you are from Pakistan and working in Australia as radiologist, how would you feel? Or even if he meant radiologist in Pakistan reporting on his X-rays over Internet.

bob

RickS (Rick) · #65 24-10-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobson

Rick,

This is public forum. There is no need to explain things this way.
There is no need to "interpret" things.

I am not saying Peter is racist. Imagine if you are from Pakistan and working in Australia as radiologist, how would you feel? Or even if he meant radiologist in Pakistan reporting on his X-rays over Internet.

bob

Bob,

I'm sorry, but it *is* necessary to interpret things. We are reading messages in written form devoid of the usual body language and hints that we get in a face to face situation. Even face to face we misunderstand each other at times.

If Peter said, as I believe, that he doesn't want his medical data shipped overseas so that somebody can reduce costs then I think that is perfectly reasonable. Another country does not necessarily have the same privacy laws or the same controls over the quality of medical practitioners as we do in Australia.

If Peter said that he doesn't want an Australian accredited doctor of Pakistani origin looking at his X-rays then that's a completely different thing. I don't think he said that and to me that was clear from what he wrote.

Cheers,
Rick.

Screwdriverone (Chris) · #66 24-10-2010, 09:54 PM

OK, WAYYYY off topic for some reason due to a completely logical and innocent comment which has been jumped on and blown out of proportion.

Lets try to not become too politically correct and find ourselves not be able to state an opinion without being labelled or even "insinuated" to be a racist.

What was said has NOTHING derogatory or insulting in it. It was simply a statement saying that it is preferred that the results of something medical in Australia, should not be sent elsewhere. This is an opinion that Peter is entitled to express.

The fact that a foreign country was mentioned and all of a sudden, it's deemed racist, or POSSIBLY racist, OR, "watch out what you say, this is a public forum". YES it's a public forum, YES, people from ALL over the world read what is posted here. BUT, the statement WAS in no way insulting or demeaning to anyone. There was NO comparison to anyone else, there was no implication of anyone not being able to do their job properly. It was simply a statement of preference. Anyone who reads anything untoward or insulting in that statement needs to take their PC hat off and take a good look at themselves. Seriously! Because you have encountered racism toward yourself or someone you love, doesnt give you the right to insult or accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

Let's test the statement this way, perhaps I said, ""Better health services (a radiologist reporting on my X-rays from the UK doesn't fit this model)"

Now, take ANOTHER read of that line.......hmmm? Sound racist now?

No, of course not. AND, I might point out, it didnt sound RACIST the FIRST time. It is quite common for this practice to take place, just like it is quite common for me in my job to call Telstra and be put through to a Phillipine call centre. This is a location and a nationality. Nothing wrong with either statement. To be "called out" for simply mentioning a nationality is insulting in itself.

Peter was not putting anyone down, or even casting aspersions on professionalism or expertise. The ONLY one doing anything insulting was Matt who has called Peter a "nasty fool" and for that, I say that Matt should apologise for the insult to Peter.

There, I have said my bit.

Chris

marki · #67 24-10-2010, 10:03 PM

Why do Peter's monthly rants always end up in a ****e fight

. Through careful planning of course

Mark

Screwdriverone (Chris) · #68 24-10-2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinetic

What's wrong with using 'Sir' or 'Constable'?

Huh?

Screwdriverone (Chris) · #69 24-10-2010, 10:35 PM

Oh right, thanks Steve,

Dumb Schmuck that I am......

Nice one!

Cheers

Chris

firstlight (Tony) · #70 25-10-2010, 12:03 AM

I've come to this thread late and I don't honestly know which argument is "right" or even which technology is "better". My understanding is that all advancement in technology has upsides and downsides, the trick is to weigh these outcomes to choose the most beneficial path.

I didn't see Peters comment as racist, I just thought that he couldn't see how being able to seek expert and specialised advice from leaders in their field on the other side of the world is an improvement in health services. To top it off, as he doesn't need this advice why should the side-effect improvement to his phone service (don't forget that the telco's will want to get in on the video calls business as well), and it's associated costs, be foisted on us all. This is how I read it.

I think that the world is going to advance whether we want to or not. The fact is, my mobile plan is cheaper that my land-line, and there is a growing number households that are not installing or disconnecting tthe copper as it is. From a purely business point of view it would be best to follow where the business is going or wander aimlessly into a dead-end. I'm probably wrong but I understand that Kodak, once the supreme leader in all things photographic, failed to see that digital was where the business was going and entered that market too late.

BTW I hope that no-one is in the position of needing medical specialist expertise that does not exist in Australia, but you can be sure that there are plenty in that position.

Peter Ward · #71 25-10-2010, 05:12 AM

Humm....I've been in foreign lands and hadn't chimed in on this one as I thought it had quietly died. Clearly not.

I'd question someone's sanity if they thought they were going to get better health service from someone in Pakistan, Kazakhstan or Durka-Durkistan reporting on a problem, as opposed to being face to face with a professional in downtown Sydney, Melbourne, Wagga Wagga (or wherever you and your specialist reside)

The medical concept called "clinical presentation" which would be nigh impossible to pipe down an optical fibre to the next suburb, let alone the next continent.....so excuse me it I don't jump on the Net-Health bandwagon.

As for the charges of this being a thinly veiled racist comment.... ISS rules don't allow me to give an appropriate response.

Peter Ward · #72 25-10-2010, 01:58 PM

I’ve had time to chill.... and ponder Matt’s comments about myself. I suspect his PC wheels are turning in there but the hamster has long since died.

At least with the proposed NBN, the evidence of such a challenged mental state will be more rapidly available.

Paul Haese · #73 26-10-2010, 01:01 PM

I have not read through all the replies but a few things stand out about the Nation broadband scheme.

The new system will require you to put in lines into your home. The Network will only come to your fascia. Average price for putting lines throughout your home if you have say 2 connections is estimated at around $500-$2000. I heard it on the ABC radio yesterday. This does not cover the cost fo new phones, modems and fax machines that are compliant with the technology. Reason for the high costs is supply and demand. There are not enough technicians available to do this work with the necessary skill. Nor is the new gear available yet and we know how much new equipment costs.

Next this system will only really be good within Australia. The overseas lines are copper and will not be replaced for some time yet. Systems overseas will affect the speed of connection and download rates. Since most stuff is overseas guess what will happen? This should also be borne in mind with the notion of contention. That being, each node is only capable of a certain load. If 100 people share the same load the speed will not be heaps faster as has been suggested. It will be a shared speed and that might mean it might be twice as fast or just as fast as now. It really depends on how this is all setup. Quite frankly I see this scheme being a bit of a fizzer once the bills start rolling out.

Finally, when has the final cost ever been what the federal government has stated, or for that matter any government has stated. It always blows out. Some estimates are now suggesting it will be triple the cost of the 43 billion now. I hope this is not the case. Also bear in mind the cables stung up on the power lines have a service life of 25-30 year due to radiation from the Sun and the cosmos.

Yep waste of money Peter. I reckon fix up the problem areas and work on health and put 35 billion into that.

AndrewJ · #74 26-10-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

There are not enough technicians available to do this work with the necessary skill.

They just have to ring up an overseas call centre to be walked though it.
Whats the problem

Andrew

still happy as long as my copper isnt under water

rmcconachy · #75 26-10-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

I have not read through all the replies but a few things stand out about the Nation broadband scheme.

The new system will require you to put in lines into your home. The Network will only come to your fascia. Average price for putting lines throughout your home if you have say 2 connections is estimated at around $500-$2000. I heard it on the ABC radio yesterday. This does not cover the cost fo new phones, modems and fax machines that are compliant with the technology. Reason for the high costs is supply and demand. There are not enough technicians available to do this work with the necessary skill. Nor is the new gear available yet and we know how much new equipment costs.

I'm afraid that most of this is wrong. You don't have to rewire your home any more or less than you would with any current wired (ADSL or cable) broadband connection. If you wish to run cables through your house you can, if you wish to run a wireless network inside your house you can, if you wish to do neither you can choose that option too. No different to the situation today. The required networking gear is available today and it isn't expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Next this system will only really be good within Australia. The overseas lines are copper and will not be replaced for some time yet. Systems overseas will affect the speed of connection and download rates. Since most stuff is overseas guess what will happen? This should also be borne in mind with the notion of contention. That being, each node is only capable of a certain load. If 100 people share the same load the speed will not be heaps faster as has been suggested. It will be a shared speed and that might mean it might be twice as fast or just as fast as now. It really depends on how this is all setup. Quite frankly I see this scheme being a bit of a fizzer once the bills start rolling out.

There were overseas lines laid before optical fiber became ubiquitous, I don't know how many (if any?) of them are still used. All undersea cables laid in recent history have been optical fiber. The vast majority of phone and data traffic to overseas destinations is sent along fiber optic links. There are also huge geographically spread caches dispersed around the internet to reduce the traffic requirements across intercontinental links so not all traffic that you might think comes from overseas really does, e.g, to be flippant you are not dragging your YouTube videos across the Pacific.

If everybody tries to simultaneously download at the maximum possible speed they can then things will slow down. If everybody in my local area turns on every cold water tap in their house the water pressure to my house drops too. My water example is about as likely and significant. Both networks are supposed to be scaled so that under any likely situation there is plenty sufficient `flow' (data or water). The suggested network design has vastly higher headroom than any current broadband system in use in Australia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Also bear in mind the cables stung up on the power lines have a service life of 25-30 year due to radiation from the Sun and the cosmos.

I've never seen studies on the effect of cosmic rays on optical fiber. In fact I don't see how a cosmic rays affects fiber at all but I could be wrong (happy to learn!). Regarding maintenance, running any kind of `wire' underground is definitely better than stringing it on poles, I agree with this point. This is why NBN Co. has been trying to get access to the ducts Telstra use for their cabling.

The original request was for a technical discussion but it's become anything but that. I make no comment about whether the project is worthwhile, I'm just trying to point out some technical falsehoods.

Peter Ward · #76 27-10-2010, 12:18 PM

The Australian had a pretty good piece on the NBN this week, noting that
apart from the cost of the network itself, current phones, fax machines etc. will not be compatible with optical fibre.

Does anyone know for sure whether a "set-top" type box will be required to use your existing equipment? (who pays for this?) or will it have to be replaced?

strongmanmike (Michael) · #77 27-10-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwdriverone

Dumb Schmuck that I am......

Chris

Oi how dare you insult yourself....and the Jewish people?

Sorry

turbo_pascale (Rob) · #78 27-10-2010, 02:49 PM

Decided to do some digging, because everyone seems to think listening to some idiot on the radio is a source of facts. 10 minutes of ground work search for real facts answers some of the speculation.

Refer to the NBNCo FAQ Page here.

Specifically read the sections entitled:
What about installation of cables and wiring?
Specifically:

Quote:

NBN Co will install a Network Terminating Unit inside each premise (house, apartment, business) free of charge which will have 4 data ports and 2 voice ports which can be used to connect customer equipment to the network. This alone will be sufficient to dramatically improve end users' broadband experience.

Where can I get more information about inside wiring?

You can also download the "The NBN End-User Premises Handbook" which is about 100 pages of all the tech info you may like to read.

Specifically, read section 4.11 (Page 34) which basically states that the NTU (Network Termination Unit) will have either as part of it or an add-on module connectors to support existing PSTN devices.. The fluffy terminology (eg. may require an add-on module) is likely because they will offer different NTU (ie "functional equivalent of the modem") depending on the requirement. They probably are yet to determine who they are buying them from, or how many variants will be available (total guesswork on my part)

Turbo

supernova1965 (Warren) · #79 27-10-2010, 03:10 PM

Well this means for only $4.00 more ($39.95) than I am paying now for 256kbs down and 64kbs Up with unlimited bandwidth I can get 25Mbs down and 2Mbs up with 30GB per month with Internode and 30GB is ample for me

Sounds worth it to me.

rmcconachy · #80 27-10-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

The Australian had a pretty good piece on the NBN this week, noting that
apart from the cost of the network itself, current phones, fax machines etc. will not be compatible with optical fibre.

Does anyone know for sure whether a "set-top" type box will be required to use your existing equipment? (who pays for this?) or will it have to be replaced?

If that is what the piece in The Australian said then it wasn't a very good piece at all. You will be able to use current phones and faxes. Some of the network designers and phone companies don't like it but NBN Co. have committed to it as a practical/political necessity.

Lest I be seen as an NBN booster, I don't think that the planned approach is the best way of solving Australia's telecommunication issues (everybody else has had their 2c, there's mine) but if you want to know more about the proposed NBN then I suggest you read the information that NBN Co. has released rather than relying on the partisan drivel printed by The Australian. Do you only read Ford press releases to judge Holden's cars?