News: Hawking on God (Again)

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Does the expression 'she is a witch' remind you how stupid mobs can get.

Bert

Precisely. IMO, Religion (particularly Christianity) is the single largest cause of hate, death and destruction the world has known.

I dont deny the need for "religion" generally in the Human condition, but the "God of gaps" model we have used so far is beginning to wear thin, time for a different paradigm .

[CraigS]

Bert: I'm not convinced that the majority of Australians ever did, or ever will, support sending troops to fight in those wars !

Not all leaders speak for their people, all of the time !!

But we digress ..
I agree with you about religion, science and purpose. However, I see all too often, scientists arguing religiously ... about science !!

How come ??

Cheers

[avandonk]

Fred the different paradigm will only occur slowly as the information diffuses slowly through the populace. We die for one simple reason so the young can take our place with new ideas. We cannot perceive this 'shift' in our life time as the change is subtle.

We are well on the way though when a twelve year old is consulted to change the parameters of your new phone!

I heard them say settings you silly old twit. But I could be wrong.

Bert

[avandonk]

Very simple CraigS the Templeton Prize is worth far more than the Nobel Prize!

Just be the leader in your field and stick god in the missing bit and you are half a million dollars richer!

Bert

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Very simple CraigS the Templeton Prize is worth far more than the Nobel Prize!

Just be the leader in your field and stick god in the missing bit and you are half a million dollars richer!

Bert

You see no value in spirituality of any kind, at all ?

[rcheshire (Rowland)]

I am of the view that when you don't like the questions that philosophy raises...

...and while I share respect for SH as a brilliant mathematician, I'm not inclined to follow his religion... he's entitled to his view.

Science has a purpose, but it doesn't guide my conscience... neither does it explain consciousness, and most respected scientists, in-fact, the honest scientific community knows that.

"to achieve an intimate understanding of the workings of the universe is to know the mind of God..." (Stephen Hawking)

SH doesn't rule out God, he refers to a conventional understanding of 'all knowing,' but confers that on mankind, or the people that achieve that level of understanding. Do I need to mention the obvious potential social issues?

While SH's comment is metaphorical in one sense, it also reveals an underlying agenda, which SH has, as you say, recently stated - "God did not create the universe..." he's been saying that for years...

A dependence on science to provide all the answers, leads us down a path that does not and cannot address the issues facing mankind. Similarly, philosophy unattended by science. One with out the other is eventually destructive. I'm not inclined to rule out either to gain an understanding of my humanity.

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by CraigS

You see no value in spirituality of any kind, at all ?

From what I have observed and read I find that so called spiritualty is the the least adhered to cause ever invented by man!

This does not mean I can ignore it. It is a bit like mental illness as it is real but I do not suffer from it.

Bert

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by avandonk

From what I have observed and read I find that so called spiritualty is the the least adhered to cause ever invented by man!

This does not mean I can ignore it. It is a bit like mental illness as it is real but I do not suffer from it.

Bert

I see tremendous goodness in you Bert ... and in many others, including scientists !
Yet I cannot predict goodness from any theoretical perspective(s).

Does this support not further scientific progress ?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by netwolf

Bojan, so have the laws change from the time the universe started and now?
Do we have any evidence of this?

I had just read this post in this thread, then went to the ABC Website and saw this http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...ce&topic=space and it is not from America
Should be a very interesting discussion

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

You see no value in spirituality of any kind, at all ?

What does that mean?. "Spirituality". What, external influences?, reaction to the unknown?, Spirits?, Unexplainable human thought trains?.

"Value" implies some positive effect, relative to what?.

[avandonk]

We humans find it hard to define goodness in others. Yet we all know it instantly when we see it.

We cannot even define what consciousness is. Self awareness is the really fundamental first test.

A simple test is to put an animal or bird in front of a mirror and see what they do.

A human child passes this test with flying colours. They KNOW it is him or herself!

The universe by random events has finally produced a flackey self destructive species called humans.

I personally think we stand on the precipice. We as a species have just worked out how to start to write the user manual to our bodies at the molecular level. We stand to gain much. Misused we lose far more.

We do not need mythical entities dreamt up by goat herders to tell us how to live.

We should grasp the chance to control our future with both hands and our combined intellects.

I will settle for nothing less!

Bert

[CraigS]

There is an ineffable quality to knowledge and experience which guides all humans.

Spirituality, wisdom or whatever you want to call it, must be actively summonsed in oneself and others, in order to progress as a species.

This conversation requires no deity.

Or so I feel, anyway.
And that doesn't have much to do with Science.

Cheers & Rgds to all.

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by rcheshire

Blaming God for all the bad in the world avoids admitting to the source of it don't you think - people.

If God gave us free will - the ability to choose - that can be applied to good or bad. I don't see the confusion. People do bad things, to advantage themselves and to disadvantage others...

...the question is what will you do - you have a choice, and that is surely the mark.

Because others do not endeavour toward good doesn't make God bad. It just means that we have been given free will, the freedom to choose in all its expression - would you have your will removed. Put it to good instead of evil.

The problem is that one without the other is not really freedom.

There is huge confusion. If there is true choice, then God is irrelivant, redundant (and is indeed bad or impotent allowing such an equal choice) .

God loves everyone so is supposedly a positive influence. David Attenbrough was asked if he believed in God. He replied. There is a parasite that exclusively lives behind African childrens eyes that slowley, eventually causes a very painfull blindness. What possible notion of love or choice could that be attributed too. Davids conclusion was that God was either non existant or truly evil.

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

There is huge confusion. If there is true choice, then God is irrelivant, redundant (and is indeed bad or impotent allowing such an equal choice) .

God loves everyone so is supposedly a positive influence. David Attenbrough was asked if he believed in God. He replied. There is a parasite that exclusively lives behind African childrens eyes that slowley, eventually causes a very painfull blindness. What possible notion of love or choice could that be attributed too. Davids conclusion was that God was either non existant or truly evil.

When I finished year twelve in 1967 we had to go to a retreat with Jesuit Priests for two weeks. In one of the discussions I got up and said that everything I had been taught from the bible was either allegory or at best out and out fabrication. The rest of my peers were visibly disturbed. The head Jesuit asked me lots of questions and I answered him as best I could. At the end of it he said that we have to tell simple stories for the ordinary people. He went further and said when did you work all this out. I told him when I was nine. He then agreed with me. With the proviso that I will understand it all better as I get older. I am now sixty one and it is still fabrication not allegory.

They knew all along!

Bert

[marki]

Oh crikey, I hate philosophy. You will keep moving around in ever decreasing spirals until you disappear up your own fundermental orifice. Our spirituallity is simply a consequence of our consciousness and environment, nothing more nothing less.

Mark

[netwolf]

Why is it that eventually any such discussion as with the subject we eventualy get to the point where further discussion would breach IIS polices. While we are not allowed to debate religion it seems perfectly alright for Scientists to crticise spiritual values. As i said before lets agree to disagree and focus on the Science rather thant trying to prove or disprove God, spirtuality etc.

Why is that when you accept that human beings are limited do you then think that everthing we derive Scientifically is the absolute truth? As much as some Scientist would like to say Religion is a human creation, so is Science. Where would Science be with the absence of human mind and consious? The truth is subject to our human understanding of it, is it "The Truth" or just a construct of each persons understanding. As each person is diffrent this becomes even more hard to nail down as one thing.

Regardless of what theory you want to present, it is not universaly true, how can you say so when only human beings can percive it. They say mathematics is the language of the universe well again thats a very racist remark given mathematics is a human construct.

Some of you Trekkie fans would recall the Movie where the Klingons come to make peace with humans and the Klingon lady says somethin along the lines of human rights sounding so racist because it denise Klingons by its context. So what makes us humans on this small third rock think that our constructs of the universe are absolute truth and there is no Consiousness beyond mankind. As bert said clearly humans have developed a consious but what is to say that it can realise the truth?

So whatever scientific or Spiritual theory is created by human consious is not the be all and end all of it. So why argue on what is the truth. That is a subject outside the scope of this forum and possibly the human mind.

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by rcheshire

Well said Bert! The things that tell us how to live are already in place... blame it on the goat herders.

...consciousness is not explained by science. The questions that that raises are themselves worthy of investigation, and that is the role of philosophy.

Our consciousness is the Universe's way of contemplating itself. So far we have done a lousy job. There have been a few bright points.

If you know anything of Godel you will understand that it is impossible for our feeble mind to contemplate the Universe let alone the thing we use to contemplate the Universe with!

I know my limitations. Reductionism only works until you get to the tricky bits.

We are far better than that. I cannot prove it yet but I happen to think that with very good training and discipline the human brain can and will surpass even what we have seen so far.

I will also say that the discipline and training can be something we cannot even define now.

As an example Mozart wrote a full symphony at the age of five!

Bert

[marki]

No one is saying science is absolute truth, only a fool would do that. It is simply the best explaination we have (although the whole dark matter business is a bit on the nose). Of course it is a human construct like everything else we perceive. Gave up on the idea of truths years ago.

Mark

[netwolf]

Bert I agree the human mind is far mor capabale than what we see today.
But even when we use more of our brain with a higher level of disipline and self control, we still are human. Can we speak for all the universe when we are only a small fraction of it? That to me sounds much like the Earth Centrer universe concepts. Its just now Human Centrerd universe.

Whent things are there worst, human beings have the opertunity to be there best. While naturual disasters and diseases may claim there victims they also inspire many people to be there best in helping them,for example the Australia Eye specilist Fred Hollows I think it was who did so much in this area. Yet we also have human beings who wish to bomb some nations back to the stone ages because of a diffrence of view. Natural disasters and disease are universal they can occur anywhere and there are leasons to be learned from it. What does not break only makes you stronger.

There is this other construct that the universe is only a stage for us to see the only truth there is , the truth about ourselves. The only truth that a human mind in the end can not deny is the Trutgh of there actions in this life. There is no escape from that, the world is perhaps a stage to let us see who we are. A mirror to look in so there is no doubt about it in our consious mind who we are. Then againt that is just my humble view of it.

[avandonk]

Here are a few tests

How many flying chariots existed in ancient times? urrrr!
How many airliners cross our oceans per day. Thousands

How many people were brought back from the dead in JC's day? One!
How many people are brought back to life by modern medical methods every day? Quite a few!

I won't bother to go on.

This is not an attack on religion. It is an attack on ignorant people purporting to speak for religion. If you want to believe what ignorant goat herders beleived in fine.

It is very simple. If god really spoke to these ignorant goat herders he would have said 'wash your hands' not cut off the bit on the end of your willies!

Bert