Speed doesn't kill

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

"I drive a beamer and I'm a really good driver..............

Well done mate!

Cheers -

You've missed the point entirely & I don't drive a Beemer.

Rust buckets that drop oil, with bald tyres or stuffed shocks, dodgy brakes and no indicators have no place on public roads....demotition derby's perhaphs

Can't afford the repairs? Then use public transport.

I don't care what cars other people drive, so long as the're roadworthy.

If we can get a system that produces drivers that are predictable, safe and courteous, I'm firmly of the opinion the speed part of the equation rapildy becomes meaningless......as when you comply with the first three (eg the German model) your speed by definition will be appropriate for the conditions.

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Originally Posted by Hagar

All the winging in the world won't change the law. If it';s 110KM then you deserve to be booked at 111KM. Actual.

Driving a car at speed is best left to those who do it on a race track. Leave the rest of us to dawdle around our highways.

100% behind you on this Doug. Obey the speed limit and you won't get booked.


What's the hurry?

Our street is 50kmh but most drivers wouldn't be doing any less than 65-70kmh. If you drive to the speed limit what's the problem with that?

Secondly, drive to suit the weather and road conditions.

I was driving home from work on the last 4 days of this weekend - with all the bad weather Melbourne has experienced - the conditions were terrible. Sheets of rain pelting down on the freeways (Tullamarine/Citiylink and Calder) I was driving at 70-80kmh as this seemed like the most comfortable speed given the shocking conditions. And what was happening? I was being passed by every other motorist doing at least 100-110kmh. I'm talking little hatchbacks, vans, tradies utes with tandam trailers. Many of them also tailgating. I doubt any othese drivers would have been able to take appropriate action if they lost control or the car in front of them suddenly braked. I was leaving at least 5 seconds distance in front of me.


I believe, Speed does kill, because a majority of the driving population do not know how to handle a vehilce at high speed. I would rather lower speed limits in my area, and on the roads that I drive on, than speeding motorists, who "think" they can handle a car at high speed. I often say that those who continually push the "speed doesn't kill/guns dont kill people..." are often big heros with little appendages who are trying to compensate with fast and shiny toys, perhaps longing for a lost or mispent youth, wanting to take out their frustration, or just simply show off or prove they are better than others.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

I believe, Speed does kill, because a majority of the driving population do not know how to handle a vehilce at high speed.

Beg to differ.

In a seminal study (Solomon 1964) of 10,000 vehicle crashes it was established it is actually safter to travel 10km/hr faster than the surrounding traffic, compared to 20km/hr slower.

It is essential to note however, keeping up with the traffic flow, regardless of the posted limit offered the lowest risk of a crash.

[rat156]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

100% behind you on this Doug. Obey the speed limit and you won't get booked.


What's the hurry?

The hurry is I've been caught behind some slowpoke doing 20kmh under the speed limit because he can't drive at the speed limit or is one of the "Speed Kills" nazis that think that they can slow everyone else down. "There, everyone is safer, and I'm responsible" types, you know the ones...

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Our street is 50kmh but most drivers wouldn't be doing any less than 65-70kmh. If you drive to the speed limit what's the problem with that?

If that is indeed the case ask the local plod to place a speed camera in your street, there is no excuse for exceeding the speed limit in suburban housing. Book them.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Secondly, drive to suit the weather and road conditions.

I was driving home from work on the last 4 days of this weekend - with all the bad weather Melbourne has experienced - the conditions were terrible. Sheets of rain pelting down on the freeways (Tullamarine/Citiylink and Calder) I was driving at 70-80kmh as this seemed like the most comfortable speed given the shocking conditions. And what was happening? I was being passed by every other motorist doing at least 100-110kmh. I'm talking little hatchbacks, vans, tradies utes with tandam trailers. Many of them also tailgating. I doubt any othese drivers would have been able to take appropriate action if they lost control or the car in front of them suddenly braked. I was leaving at least 5 seconds distance in front of me.

Might I suggest that the one who may have caused people to brake suddenly was the car doing 30-40kmh less than everyone else. I also doubt that anyone, no matter how fast they are going can do little about their predicament after they have "lost control". What is "the appropriate action" anyway? Surely you're not advocating swerving into another lane? The ONLY appropriate action is to stand on the brakes, if you have ABS as hard as you can. Cars are engineered to take a fair hit front and back, it's side impacts that are really dangerous. Of course if you're one of the people here bragging about the tyre wear on another thread (>120k kms) then you would probably stop sometime next week anyway.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

I believe, Speed does kill, because a majority of the driving population do not know how to handle a vehilce at high speed. I would rather lower speed limits in my area, and on the roads that I drive on, than speeding motorists, who "think" they can handle a car at high speed. I often say that those who continually push the "speed doesn't kill/guns dont kill people..." are often big heros with little appendages who are trying to compensate with fast and shiny toys, perhaps longing for a lost or mispent youth, wanting to take out their frustration, or just simply show off or prove they are better than others.

So the problem is not with the education of people to be able to drive at reasonable speed, it's with the speed itself. Utter rubbish. Fatigue kills as well, and if you drive at a speed a bit faster than the boring 100/110kmh then you have a tendency to be more engaged in the drive and less likely to succumb to fatigue. The speed usually has little to do with the reason a person loses control of their car, it is usually misattention by boredom, talking on the phone, texting, constantly checking the speedo etc.

Cheers
Stuart (looking forward to Phillip Island this weekend!!)

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Originally Posted by rat156

The hurry is I've been caught behind some slowpoke doing 20kmh under the speed limit because he can't drive at the speed limit or is one of the "Speed Kills" nazis that think that they can slow everyone else down. "There, everyone is safer, and I'm responsible" types, you know the ones...

So, every driver MUST travel at exactly the posted speed limit? 5 or 10kmh under is a crime is it? This small variation is not going to cause any issues, only to the idiot hoon who comes tearing up behind me at 120kmh who thinks they're Peter Perfect and refuses to be travelling behind someone. So many drivers have the attitude that they want to be "up front" and at the front of the driving pack and not following someone else on the road (see my previous comment re: small appendages and big cars)

Originally Posted by rat156

Might I suggest that the one who may have caused people to brake suddenly was the car doing 30-40kmh less than everyone else. I also doubt that anyone, no matter how fast they are going can do little about their predicament after they have "lost control". What is "the appropriate action" anyway?

Surely you're not advocating swerving into another lane? The ONLY appropriate action is to stand on the brakes, if you have ABS as hard as you can. Cars are engineered to take a fair hit front and back, it's side impacts that are really dangerous.

Well my idea of appropriate action to start with is to have a safe stopping distance in front of me. I wouldn't even consider swerving into another lane.

Originally Posted by rat156

Of course if you're one of the people here bragging about the tyre wear on another thread (>120k kms) then you would probably stop sometime next week anyway.

Firslty, check your facts. I did not state that I had been travelling on tyres for 120k http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=57146 I stated 95k and they are perfecly legal and were checked by my mechanical and my local tyre mechanic every 10k. And for the limited driving this vehicle does, all parties are happy with their condition. Please check your facts before posting.


It seems that the the trend growing out of this argument in general is that everyone needs to speed around 10-20k's faster than the other driver? Wow then if everyone takes this attitude and applies it in practice, what is the final speed we are all collectively doing?

If the arguement is that the speed limits are too low, then lobby your local member, or whatever you have to do.

It seems that good, responsible drivers who do all the correct things on the roads, who obey the laws and road rules are the ones who get shot down in these types of arguments. If you like to speed don't whine like a girl when get caught. Personally, there could be speed camera on every street corner in every suburb and town in Australia - it would'nt phase me one iota.

Anyway this arguement never goes anywhere on forums like this.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Anyway this arguement never goes anywhere on forums like this.

No, not with blinkered dogma such as yours.

The Germans dropped their road toll by a factor of around 4x.

We've been told "speed kills!" "speed kills!" and have seen posted speed limits slowly lowered acoss the nation because of this ineffective mantra.

Yet, in the same period our toll went up! Even blind Freddy can work out we've got it wrong.

[pgc hunter]

Once I almost rear-ended a car dawdling on the freeway. I glanced away momentarily to check on something and everyone infront suddenly hits their brakes....ofcourse the usual colourful language indicating surprise and shock is uttered...you know...what da hell is going on here.. and after those 4 or 5 cars move into the right lane to overtake... I find it's some nob doing 70-80 in the 110 zone. Needless to say he copped a full dose of my horn as I passed him and some nice little gestures with it.

It's idiots like this that cause accidents; not doing 5 over the limit on a wide open stretch of freeway as our pollies are so hellbent on ramming down our throats in the name of revenue raising "saving lives"

Wipe of 5......wipe my....

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Speed kills, alcohol kills, smoking kills, guns kills, pollution kills, salt kills, fat kills, drugs kills, sleeping too little kills, eating too much kills, eating too little kills – and just about anything you do in your life has been scientifically proven will kill you. Hell, I should be dead for at least forty year. Lets face it – Living is a health hazard. You are born to die.
Memento mori..

[pgc hunter]

I suggest we ban life. That way no one can die. Last call for life oppression...paging Mr Brumby to the thread

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by pgc hunter

Once I almost rear-ended a car dawdling on the freeway. I glanced away momentarily to check on something and everyone infront suddenly hits their brakes....ofcourse the usual colourful

If you had been paying attention to the job at hand you may well have saved yourself the stupid indignity of uttering such profanities.
The only one who looks stupid in this case is you. If the car in front had been a police officer on or off duty you may well have ended with a bill into the bargain.

[pgc hunter]

Originally Posted by Hagar

If you had been paying attention to the job at hand you may well have saved yourself the stupid indignity of uttering such profanities.

I had to check my speedo to make sure I wasn't 3 over the limit.

The only one who looks stupid in this case is you. If the car in front had been a police officer on or off duty you may well have ended with a bill into the bargain.

I would have thanked them on the spot because as I recall I was dangerously low on TP that day.

[Peter Ward]

Ok so what have we got?

A few (clever) glib responses, and not real evidence "speed kills" = truth

The German model I find somewhat compelling.

It would be great to drive around Oz at a responsible clip, without some bureaucrat/polly/dope telling me I'm gonna die purely because my speedo says "limit" +3 km/hr.

If you agree, how do you act as agent of change??

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

I can only say this if I am obeying the speed limit and someone comes up behind me at 120 or 130. Then I am in the right and the one behind me is in the wrong the vast majority of people obey the speed limits so that makes the anyone going faster than the speed limit in the minority and they are not the only ones on the road and need to take the conditions into consideration and that means the people obeying the limits. And the few that for some reason go under the limit they are dangerous as well.


I still say if you want to go fast do it in a place that is meant for it.


Please all be safe I want to be able to keep talking to you all and not hear the bad news that we have lost a member of our ISS family.

[PeterM]

A bit of googling shows that "advances in vehicular safety" have helped bring the road deaths down in Germany, so you now have a better chance of surviving. Maybe you "just lose your legs" or be "wheelchair bound" for the rest of your life but at least you weren't in deaths column, just another of the 400,000 plus injured on German roads every year - seems they still have a problem on German roads (yes the injuries also dropped in the figures but 400,000 is still an awful lot). A huge number - even after recent massive increased penalties (euro dollars) and point losses (geez, doesn't this sound all too familiar). The autobahn is not the be all and end all for the driving elite as it seems only about 40% of it is open speed (providing your car meets all the requirements) - with tunnels, curves, repairs etc, etc dropping the speeds down to where you may as well push it. The figures I found suggest 10% of all fatalities are on the autobahn. Marked and unmarked police vehicles regularly patrol the autobahn along with very high tech cameras (sounding all too familiar?) but why, if this is the playground of the driving elite? someone is telling porkys. The Germans sure think there is a problem.
I would say what a load of "bollocks" - speeding does contribute to the carnage.

http://octane.ie/news/article.php?id=517

PeterM.

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

If you agree, how do you act as agent of change??

Well, that bit's easy. If we want to have similar stats to the Germans we need a near-hundred fold increase in the population density (230/km2 vs 2.6/km2) so that we can earn enough taxes to pay for, as well as justify, a beautiful network of state-of-the-art freeways, uncompromising vehicle standards, and world-class driver education. And then we need to spend a life-time dedicated to altering the national attitudes of drivers towards rights and responsibilities.

(I'm just hanging in there with this thread because I want to get my post count over 900.)

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

And furthermore...

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I would say what a load of "bollocks" - speeding does contribute to the carnage.

Lies, dammed lies, and statistics.

There is no doubt operating *any* vehicle poorly at high velocities has serious consequences.

It's the "operating poorly" bit that needs to be nipped in the bud. The aviation world sorted this out decades ago, without revenue raising or bubble wrapping.

The German system is not perfect, buy even by your figures 10% of fatalities for 30% of the total traffic simply does not add up. So who's telling porkies?

[rat156]

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

So, every driver MUST travel at exactly the posted speed limit? 5 or 10kmh under is a crime is it? This small variation is not going to cause any issues, only to the idiot hoon who comes tearing up behind me at 120kmh who thinks they're Peter Perfect and refuses to be travelling behind someone. So many drivers have the attitude that they want to be "up front" and at the front of the driving pack and not following someone else on the road (see my previous comment re: small appendages and big cars)

No, not everyone has to travel at exactly the speed limit, but I would like to, usually. What gives you the right to criticise me for traveling at the speed limit, as your initial post did (the people who didn't slow down in the rain), just because you don't feel confident in either your experience or the ability of your car to handle the conditions? I have had experience driving at real speed on a soaked racetrack on cut slicks, once you learn to read the signals coming from the car it's not that much harder than normal driving. Calling people names and insinuating that they are lacking in any department is unproductive and insulting, it doesn't contribute to the debate.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Well my idea of appropriate action to start with is to have a safe stopping distance in front of me. I wouldn't even consider swerving into another lane.

Did you look behind you for that Semi?

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Firslty, check your facts. I did not state that I had been travelling on tyres for 120k http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=57146 I stated 95k and they are perfecly legal and were checked by my mechanical and my local tyre mechanic every 10k. And for the limited driving this vehicle does, all parties are happy with their condition. Please check your facts before posting.

I'd ask you to do the same, common courtesy. I did not state that it was YOU that was bragging about the high mileage tyres. In fact I didn't bother to check the thread (any action on it?) to see if you were one of the posters, my memory isn't that good to remember either. If you read the posts I made on that thread I was concerned with the quality of the tyres in the first place, tyres that last for ages in general give up less grip in the first place. Perhaps the other people on that wet road had decent tyres on their car ans their stopping distance was reduced?

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

It seems that the the trend growing out of this argument in general is that everyone needs to speed around 10-20k's faster than the other driver? Wow then if everyone takes this attitude and applies it in practice, what is the final speed we are all collectively doing?

Well, we're limited to the speed of light...

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

If the arguement is that the speed limits are too low, then lobby your local member, or whatever you have to do.

Pointless, they don't listen and don't think they have to, afterall what they're doing is for "safety". This is the crux of Peter's original post, speed is not necessarily unsafe. Excessive speed is, well, by definition, excessive, the problem is that some people think that excessive is "faster than they drive".

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

It seems that good, responsible drivers who do all the correct things on the roads, who obey the laws and road rules are the ones who get shot down in these types of arguments. If you like to speed don't whine like a girl when get caught. Personally, there could be speed camera on every street corner in every suburb and town in Australia - it would'nt phase me one iota.

Anyway this arguement never goes anywhere on forums like this.

Well, I hope I'm not in a car anywhere near you, you must be so obsessively checking your speedo you can't be watching the road, or you're going so slowly that even a G-Wiz would overtake you. But the part of the statement I really take objection to is the "good, responsible drivers..." bit, implying that I am not. Arguments get shot down because they aren't supported by facts, the Speed Kills myth is supported by platitudes and revenue.

Cheers
Stuart

[desler]

Introducing a licensing model isn't going to change anything in your life time Peter. These dramatic changes in social policy takes decades to introduce and costs more than most of us could imagine.

What Government is going to introduce a scheme that cannot bring them an identifiable gain within a two term span?

You'd be very popular introducing a 4 year licensing scheme that would cost the average motorist $50K to obtain!

The fact is that in Australia, the driving culture is what it is today.

The four introductions to reduce road trauma.

1. (Seatbelts)
2. (Drink Drive Enforcement)
3. (Vehicle Design)
4. (Speed Camera's)

ABS statistics don't lie! True they can be skewed to show anything you like, but the raw data doesn't lie!

The system was designed and implemented by the Government of Australia for Australians. Simple as that!

Laws are simply the Governments' way of controlling behavior. Do we all agree with all laws ????? Questionable But do we all choose to live in this wonderful land?


If the answer is yes, learn where the brake pedal is, and get on with life!
Oh and buy a couple of drive day passes at your local motor sport venue and have fun!

Darren

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Lies, dammed lies, and statistics.

There is no doubt operating *any* vehicle poorly at high velocities has serious consequences.

It's the "operating poorly" bit that needs to be nipped in the bud. The aviation world sorted this out decades ago, without revenue raising or bubble wrapping.

The German system is not perfect, buy even by your figures 10% of fatalities for 30% of the total traffic simply does not add up. So who's telling porkies?

The aviation world sorted this out decades ago, without revenue raising or bubble wrapping.

Sound like your lies and statistics quoting a report from 1965 40+ years old.

Speed even killed on horseback.

As for the aviation industry, I don't know what you call bubble wrapping. Flying xKM appart and X ft vertical separation. Hard to crash into nothing.