The nuclear debate...

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

$35,000 solar system...

Geez, is it that cheap!!!

Might buys meself a bit of real estate...hmmmm, too many choices

Might buy Mars

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Ahh the circle of life

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

But for heavens sake, things have move on a bit since then.

Followed by a devastating accident; CEOs scapegoating and declaring this latest catastrophe “a one in a billion freak accident”;

Followed by kangaroo court investigations, hearings, reports and fake soul searching

Followed by some impressionable bright spark who says I know!!! Lets build a nuclear reactor. The latest upteen generation nuclear reactor is “FAILSAFE”!!!!

Followed by responses like these from industry apologists in defence of past mishaps, misdeeds and deceits

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

But for heavens sake, things have move on a bit since then.

And round and round we go.

And you gots ta love the latest mantra. Straight out of industry lobbyist’s folder. "France has been operating for 40 years with NO accidents". Yeah well that’s France. What about the US. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). What about the UK. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). What about Russia. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). Why only mention France? Because all the others have had accidents.

You know what you can do with that motto " Shippers of yellow-death to the world"

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Ahh the circle of life

Followed by a devastating accident; CEOs scapegoating and declaring this latest catastrophe “a one in a billion freak accident.....

There are so many holes in such tired old arguments.

Suffice to say, profit is not the only motive (lord knows, airlines would not exist) for providing an essential service.

Why would you not take lessons from Soviet or USA blunders?

There was a well structured piece on the ABC science show recently

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/...s/s1615070.htm

Oz could have been very well poised to take advantage of these emerging
technologies.

Instead of investing long term into a zero emission, power technology, the government of the day said "here have, 900 bucks and buy a something trivial, preferably made in China"

Sadly, as our ABC correspondent notes, for many
the word “nuclear” is about as popular as the word “paedophilia”.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Building one of these powerplants to the size mentioned will force up energy costs...dramatically. People will only change so much before they start to complain, in some cases rather bitterly. Push people too far and see what happens.

And yet politics aside the simple fact, which you can't deny, is that energy costs will rise in the future.

Once again I will refer to the car fuel scenario as an example of what will happen. Ethanol only becomes a viable option to use as a renewable fuel once the price of oil goes past a certain point, and it becomes cheaper to make car fuel out of sugar. The same goes for diesel. This price point for fuel changes because once the demand is shifted back to grown fuel it forces the demand & hence price up, but the simple fact is that over time demand has grown for plant based fuel as oil prices have risen.

The same will happen with the fuels for electricity production. Slowly over time, prices will rise, partially driven by outcomes of meetings like Kyoto and Copenhagen and the like, and there will be a shift where alternate means of green electricity production become "less expensive" when compared to coal based production. It is an undeniable fact.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

One thing we can do now which will make a difference is to mandate the use of solar hot water. It is simple, proven technology which works. Unlike solar electricity, storing the energy received during the day for use at night requires nothing more than some insulation. My very old second rate system needs a bit of boosting in winter but from spring to autumn the booster is turned off. Given Australia's favourable climate (and global warming ) I can't see why every house, office block and much of industry can't use solar hot water. To me it's a no-brainer.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

And nearly every house/shed has a whirly bird on the roof which could generate enough electricity to power a few lights.
I know it's only a small drop, but if everyone did it......

[renormalised (Carl)]

And you gots ta love the latest mantra. Straight out of industry lobbyist’s folder. "France has been operating for 40 years with NO accidents". Yeah well that’s France. What about the US. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). What about the UK. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). What about Russia. Oh sorry, that’s right, they’ve had accidents (pretty bad ones). Why only mention France? Because all the others have had accidents.

What does that say about France's nuclear industry as compared to the others. Who should we all try to emulate and learn off.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What does that say about France's nuclear industry as compared to the others. Who should we all try to emulate and learn off.

Well it's very tightly regulated. I've been inside a couple of plants and you could eat off the floor. I mean they wash the tyres of the vehicles coming in and out of the area and they also make you take your shoes off when you go in and out of any building. You wear special slippers. That goes for everybody even tradies. Every welding done on any pipe is X-rayed 4 or 5 times for each pass and is knocked back if anything is wrong. They have zero tolerance for everything. Seems to work so far and nobody minds.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

I've only visited one nuclear power plant, in 1994, at Trawsfynydd, Wales.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4379790.stm
Very interesting story about dissembling the plant.
It was still in use when we were there.
As Marc said, they are very clean. The visitors galleries were fully enclosed.
There was a lake onsite, I don't know if it was the cooling dam, but you could buy a license and go fishing in it.
I had visions of Barts 3 eyed fish.
Still have the coffee cup I bought from the visitors centre.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Kal

And yet politics aside the simple fact, which you can't deny, is that energy costs will rise in the future.

Once again I will refer to the car fuel scenario as an example of what will happen. Ethanol only becomes a viable option to use as a renewable fuel once the price of oil goes past a certain point, and it becomes cheaper to make car fuel out of sugar. The same goes for diesel. This price point for fuel changes because once the demand is shifted back to grown fuel it forces the demand & hence price up, but the simple fact is that over time demand has grown for plant based fuel as oil prices have risen.

The same will happen with the fuels for electricity production. Slowly over time, prices will rise, partially driven by outcomes of meetings like Kyoto and Copenhagen and the like, and there will be a shift where alternate means of green electricity production become "less expensive" when compared to coal based production. It is an undeniable fact.

What do you think is going to happen to the prices of these "green" fuels and generating methods once they become more viable. Their prices will go up...just like everything else. You will be charged not what "the market" considers to be the price, but what the producers decide to cost them at...just like what happens with oil, now. They'll just have another version of OPEC running the show, telling everyone what they will have to pay for their convenience.

In so far as biofuels is concerned, given the rapacity for more and more fuel, are they going to just grow crops for fuel or are they going to remember that we all need to eat. There are concerns now amongst nations that nations like the US, China and blocks like Europe will end up exploiting poorer nations because they'll put most of their agricultural production into growing biofuels, and expect the others to grow food. In order to feed an ever demanding growth for fuel, they'll have to put under crop more and more arable land, at the expense of food crops.

Where do you stop??

You don't seem to see, Andrew, that so called "alternative" methods will not become cheaper, unless people force governments and manufacturers to make them such. It's not only demand and supply which matters. You can demand it and they supply it, but they'll set their own prices for its providence. Economies of scale should, by rights, reduce the costs of manufacturing and supply, however, it will have to be by legislation that prices are controlled otherwise manufacturers will charge whatever they please and you will have to pay for it. You can cost cut in manufacturing and discount at sale as much as you like, up to a point, before it becomes uneconomical for yourself as a manufacturer to make and sell your goods. Those "alternative" methods will only become as cheap as the manufacturers allow them to. They will set the prices according to the prevailing costs of providing energy, or just below in order to attract customers. So, unless governments end up heavily subsidising energy production and distribution, it is still going to be an expensive exercise moving towards "alternative" methods.

Although, we may not have any choice in the matter.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

One thing we can do now which will make a difference is to mandate the use of solar hot water. It is simple, proven technology which works. Unlike solar electricity, storing the energy received during the day for use at night requires nothing more than some insulation. My very old second rate system needs a bit of boosting in winter but from spring to autumn the booster is turned off. Given Australia's favourable climate (and global warming ) I can't see why every house, office block and much of industry can't use solar hot water. To me it's a no-brainer.

Yes and I totally agree. Like PVC's, it should be mandatory on new housing and those wishing to install it on their existing houses should keep on receiving the rebate.

Or, if you're handy enough, why not make your own

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

There was a lake onsite, I don't know if it was the cooling dam, but you could buy a license and go fishing in it.
I had visions of Barts 3 eyed fish.
Still have the coffee cup I bought from the visitors centre.

I'm not surprised. Next to Dieppe on the Channel (which is very cold water) there is one of those Super Phoenix plants. They use sea water to cool down the secondary circuits and the water on the in/outlets is so warm that schools of mussels grew and other marine echo system developed. The fisheries around the area love it and you'll get the best seafood in the area. They also are starting to "pair" nuclear plants with leisure/aquatic centers in south of France. My dad told me that they have numerous "waterworlds", slides, waves generation machines, powered by the plants near by.... oh, and free hot water too

So..see... it's all not that bad.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Well it's very tightly regulated. I've been inside a couple of plants and you could eat off the floor. I mean they wash the tyres of the vehicles coming in and out of the area and they also make you take your shoes off when you go in and out of any building. You wear special slippers. That goes for everybody even tradies. Every welding done on any pipe is X-rayed 4 or 5 times for each pass and is knocked back if anything is wrong. They have zero tolerance for everything. Seems to work so far and nobody minds.

That's precisely how it should be, Marc. I wonder how the standards from the other countries compare and are they as diligent in their keeping of those standards as they are in France.

[JimmyH155]

Way back in 1984, we bought a fairly run down farm near Gympie. There was only tank water discharging by gravity into the sink. I decided that was primitive and we had a Solarhart water heater fitted on the roof, complete with a little pressure pump (took a day to install) . This was the first installation around for about 60 klm. Boy did that water get hot!! Frequently it would boil in the roof. On one occasion it was overcast for 4 days, and even after that time, (family of 5) the water was still tepid.
I totally agree with you guys comments and would go further and say that ALL new houses without exception should be legislated to have hot water panels on their roofs - and thats all over Australia, even Tassie.
What government is man enough to implement that??
none.....

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

But if you read that article I posted the link to, the drama really starts when you decommission the plant.
How long is the working life of a nuclear power plant?????

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What do you think is going to happen to the prices of these "green" fuels and generating methods once they become more viable. Their prices will go up...just like everything else. You will be charged not what "the market" considers to be the price, but what the producers decide to cost them at...just like what happens with oil, now. They'll just have another version of OPEC running the show, telling everyone what they will have to pay for their convenience.

In so far as biofuels is concerned, given the rapacity for more and more fuel, are they going to just grow crops for fuel or are they going to remember that we all need to eat. There are concerns now amongst nations that nations like the US, China and blocks like Europe will end up exploiting poorer nations because they'll put most of their agricultural production into growing biofuels, and expect the others to grow food. In order to feed an ever demanding growth for fuel, they'll have to put under crop more and more arable land, at the expense of food crops.

Where do you stop??

You don't seem to see, Andrew, that so called "alternative" methods will not become cheaper, unless people force governments and manufacturers to make them such. It's not only demand and supply which matters. You can demand it and they supply it, but they'll set their own prices for its providence. Economies of scale should, by rights, reduce the costs of manufacturing and supply, however, it will have to be by legislation that prices are controlled otherwise manufacturers will charge whatever they please and you will have to pay for it. You can cost cut in manufacturing and discount at sale as much as you like, up to a point, before it becomes uneconomical for yourself as a manufacturer to make and sell your goods. Those "alternative" methods will only become as cheap as the manufacturers allow them to. They will set the prices according to the prevailing costs of providing energy, or just below in order to attract customers. So, unless governments end up heavily subsidising energy production and distribution, it is still going to be an expensive exercise moving towards "alternative" methods.

Although, we may not have any choice in the matter.

Originally Posted by Kal

This price point for fuel changes because once the demand is shifted back to grown fuel it forces the demand & hence price up, but the simple fact is that over time demand has grown for plant based fuel as oil prices have risen.

I already covered this in my original post.

Simple fact is that it has already happened, is happening right now, and will continue to happen in the future.

[TrevorW]

I did these sums too and came to the same conclusion refer link

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=8569

At the time the $8000 subsidy was being offerred I emailed the PM (official site) and suggested that the net cost to the householder should be reduced to about $1000 and the subsidy increased (I also suggested a minimal system of 2.5 kw per installation was more practical)

I went on too quote stat's etc

Do you think I got a response, no way

This Govt struts around promising they will do something proactive but only if they can get the money out of honest joe citizen to pay for it

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Kal

I already covered this in my original post.

Simple fact is that it has already happened, is happening right now, and will continue to happen in the future.

I agree with you...the demand will go up as oil prices rises, but so will the price of those plant based fuels, especially when oil based fuels become harder to come by.

[glenc (Glen)]

JJJ said "the drama really starts when you decommission the plant"
With 4th generation nuclear plants there is a lot less waste and the half life is much shorter.
They will actually use up most of the current waste and there will be no need to mine Uranium for ages.

"The Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) concept was developed at the Argonne National Laboratory and it has been built and tested at the Idaho National Laboratory. IFR keeps neutrons “fast” by using liquid sodium metal as a coolant instead of water. It also makes fuel processing easier by using a metallic solid fuel form. IFR can burn existing nuclear waste, making electrical power in the process. All fuel reprocessing is done within the reactor facility (hence the name “integral”) and many enhanced safety features are included and have been tested, such as the ability to shutdown safely under even severe accident scenarios."
http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/11/2...-are-integral/

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

One thing we can do now which will make a difference is to mandate the use of solar hot water. It is simple, proven technology which works. Unlike solar electricity, storing the energy received during the day for use at night requires nothing more than some insulation. My very old second rate system needs a bit of boosting in winter but from spring to autumn the booster is turned off. Given Australia's favourable climate (and global warming ) I can't see why every house, office block and much of industry can't use solar hot water. To me it's a no-brainer.

It is a no brainer, but there are still businesses that don't sell Solar Systems. They would be shouting foul if the government regulated that. It is still cheaper to install a gas system. As home are becoming mor difficult to sell home maker are opting for cheaper systems than effecient then charge like a wounded bull if you upgrade to solar.