A simple math question.

[renormalised (Carl)]

What Rob was trying to say here, Alex, is that in order for push gravity to work, the bodies interacting with one another can't be transparent to the particles they're meant to shield others against. Push gravity (as LeSage defined it) has these particles traveling unhindered by matter i.e. matter is transparent to them. You can't shield anything from something if that something can pass through you unhindered. It's like saying that that window will stop the light from coming in even though the light can pass through it....just doesn't work.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Robh

Point 4. Aberration.
Consider a radial line L, from the Earth to the Sun.
The Sun acts as a shield absorbing particles behind it along L. At any point in orbit, the Earth is pushed along L towards the Sun. As the Earth moves a small distance in this orbit, the particles pushing along L have a fairly instantaneous effect.
However, because of the larger distance to the Sun, the effect of shielding of particles by the Sun along the new line L will take considerably longer to influence the Earth at its new position i.e. the shielding is reduced. The net effect is to accelerate the Earth away from the Sun.

Regards, Rob

Are you saying that gravity takes a certain time to reach us from the Sun? It does as far as I know.. same speed as C they say and that sounds reasonable.
Maybe you are on to something here..the Moon is moving away from Earth so I believe... is this the sort of effect you describe?
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What Rob was trying to say here, Alex, is that in order for push gravity to work, the bodies interacting with one another can't be transparent to the particles they're meant to shield others against. Push gravity (as LeSage defined it) has these particles traveling unhindered by matter i.e. matter is transparent to them. You can't shield anything from something if that something can pass through you unhindered. It's like saying that that window will stop the light from coming in even though the light can pass through it....just doesn't work.

Yes of course you are right Carl I see the point... The way I see "it" there must be a near infinite amount of stuff travelling past and the degree of shielding probably depends on how dense the matter is... which directly relates it to mass no doubt...

Le Sage erroneously(hopefully) had his particles coming from outside the Universe apparently and clearly had not fine tuned the idea so lets simply consider him as the first man to be recorded as presenting the "push" idea not for definig it with an infalable presentation.... already I see two points I do not agree with him upon.. its like being in a political party..you may have the same general ideas but may be at odds with others within the party who hold different views but are of the same clikc.

I simply say LeSage is "the man" simply because it is not my original idea it belongs to him..and if it gets up even with adjustments to the way he saw it the honors go to him for being the original presentor of the idea.... but he no doubt did not have it all worked out...not that I have it all worked out but ideas move forward often trhu adjustment.... many popular theories are adjusted and added to as they age...

Consider the nuetrino ... it seems that only a small portion of them interact and I suspect whatever the "push" particles are we are only meeting a small selection of them... I do think the more dense a material the more likelyhood of interaction (shielding) ... u235 whatever heats up because at its critical mass it interacts with more particles... maybe

alex

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Are you saying that gravity takes a certain time to reach us from the Sun? It does as far as I know.. same speed as C they say and that sounds reasonable.
Maybe you are on to something here..the Moon is moving away from Earth so I believe... is this the sort of effect you describe?
alex

In push gravity, the Earth is kept in its orbit by particles pushing it along a radial line L towards the Sun. The Sun shields particles along L from the other side, with particles streaming past it towards but around the Earth. As the Earth progresses in its orbit, it will dive into this stream passing around the Sun i.e. the shielding has not had time to take effect at the new line L connecting the Earth to the Sun. Thus, the Earth cannot continue its elliptical path but tends to accelerate away from the Sun at every new point.

Regards, Rob

[renormalised (Carl)]

Any change in the gravitational field between the Sun and the planets takes time to propagate, and does so at the speed of light. However, the waveform, once it comes into existence, is always present at every point in space....whether it's close by the Sun or out in the outer solar system. So, whilst it may take a change in the gravitational field time to propagate, the field itself is always present, everywhere, and that's why we feel its effects.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Robh

In push gravity, the Earth is kept in its orbit by particles pushing it along a radial line L towards the Sun. The Sun shields particles along L from the other side, with particles streaming past it towards but around the Earth. As the Earth progresses in its orbit, it will dive into this stream passing around the Sun i.e. the shielding has not had time to take effect at the new line L connecting the Earth to the Sun. Thus, the Earth cannot continue its elliptical path but tends to accelerate away from the Sun at every new point.

Regards, Rob

Sorry to take so long to comment.
I can see the point you make ..so maybe it does ... I really dont know how to answer your question.
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Any change in the gravitational field between the Sun and the planets takes time to propagate, and does so at the speed of light. However, the waveform, once it comes into existence, is always present at every point in space....whether it's close by the Sun or out in the outer solar system. So, whilst it may take a change in the gravitational field time to propagate, the field itself is always present, everywhere, and that's why we feel its effects.

The way you describe it is more or less the way I see the push "field" system.. but being external enables an overall force say in the case of a galaxy being (I believe) held together by an external force. Each part propogates at C but being extenal has an overall effect..if that makes sence..and it may not I accept that..but my point is I sorttat see it the way you suggest,
alex

[bojan]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Are you saying that gravity takes a certain time to reach us from the Sun? It does as far as I know.. same speed as C they say and that sounds reasonable.
Maybe you are on to something here..the Moon is moving away from Earth so I believe... is this the sort of effect you describe?
alex

Alex,
The Moon is going away from Earth because of tidal effects it has on Earth's seas.. It is loosing energy packed in orbital motion in the process (which is basically dissipated as heat) so the distance must increase as a consequence. And this can be proven by calculations, the number from theory fit so well with observations that I simply do not understand how someone could still try to use this well understood effect as an "explanation" for some suspicious theories..
The science does not work like you would like it to ...

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by bojan

Alex,
The Moon is going away from Earth because of tidal effects it has on Earth's seas.. It is loosing energy packed in orbital motion in the process (which is basically dissipated as heat) so the distance must increase as a consequence. And this can be proven by calculations, the number from theory fit so well with observations that I simply do not understand how someone could still try to use this well understood effect as an "explanation" for some suspicious theories..
The science does not work like you would like it to ...

Thank you Bojan ... as to understanding why dont worry yourself about that... it is part of the morosophic condition I have regarding explaining everything so it fits into a context I believe may be the way of it... so it is my problem so think of it that way.

But if it (the Moon) loses orbital motion would that not enable the force of attraction to draw the Moon closer.. assuming for a moment there is such a force which of course I say is a myth.. but like a rifle shell (projectile) flying thru the air..as it loses speed (which is really in a broad context its lose of orbital motion ..is this not reasonable given we all relate to the planet via gravity) and so with its orbital motion reducing it is draw to the Earth... ..I would say "pushed" to Earth but that part is irrelevant for parralleling the two situations...maybe.

AND of course all the current sums must work because they will finally support someones notion of how things will work..just as I seek to fit my ideas into a frame work I believe in I expect similar will go for others.. and who would use math that did not support ones view of how things will be...

The science does not work like you would like it to ...this is a two edged sword with which I can say back ...maybe it is not working the way you like ... his quotes are so good but usable in many situations to propel the opposite point to the one he was no doubt was relating it to in the original use of the quote.

Thanks for pointing out the current view of explaining the Moons retreat from us... I hope all is good in your world.

AND maybe I can be used as an example of what becomes of one if you dont know the original (or current) ideas so as to offer a plausible alternative...so the message is for the young ones..study the real science as it may hold most of the answers... dont be like me so study hard, understand your math and its application...
alex

[xelasnave]

A serious question..where does the energy go...to be lost??
alex

[bojan]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

A serious question..where does the energy go...to be lost??
alex

Energy can not be lost....
As I have mentioned, it has been dissipated as heat - tidal activity warms up oceans a tiny bit.. as well as the rest of the Earth. Energy involved in this process exactly matches the loss of Moon's orbital energy.

You have similar processes going on Jupiter's moons.. Io's volcanic activity and Europa's liquid ocean under the ice crust.

[xelasnave]

I was being cheeky because I have heard energy can not be "lost" but I was not sure about what you said.
Thanks for that Bojan.
alex

[avandonk]

If it helps at all . All science is a construct. What you are proposing has no basis in any sort of reality.

I suggest you learn the basics at least.

I am only trying to help.

Bert

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by avandonk

All science is a construct.

Oh Bert. It is not that of all.

The definition of construct, is;

"...an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically one considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence."

Most science IS based on actual observation and on real empirical evidence. If there is any form of construct, it would be in hands of formulation of theory by the person evoking the basis of the science to explain the observations or verify actual theory.

The statement energy can't be lost is absolutely in the whole universe is 100% true. Frankly, it can only be transformed or even redistributed. As the universe is a closed system, therefore the total energy must be a constant * - and this regardless of the age nor evolution via expansion. I'd assume this is what is meant.

* The only objection is energy voided from the universe in black holes - which technically don't exist is our universe. However, IMO this is really just splitting hairs, as the black holes gravitation exists in the universe - so the energy is really only locked away in a safer region.
Another main objection, of course, is quantum vacuum and the continuous constant manufacture - creation and destruction - of virtual particles. Technically, this cause some variations in the energy. However, it is fairly trivial.

Note: Apologies for the divergence from the mathematical question in this thread, but it actually needs to be said.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If it helps at all . All science is a construct. What you are proposing has no basis in any sort of reality.

I suggest you learn the basics at least.

I am only trying to help.

Bert

I try Bert I try but in truth I am not up for what really needs to be done we both know that..but I learn.. before astronomy and the search this thing lead me I knew zip and although not much more now I know what I dont know ..if you see what I mean... but in reading stuff something hangs in on whatever... and no matter what I do this push thing haunts me ..as most of you know..it is a curse and a blessing..keeps me going sortta and trying to find out more... it drags me back..I found a painting today of this push universe and I had painted in a version of the "elves" at the outter atmostpere represented like inverted sprites but I "senced" they would be ther in this painting..and I know that is not science etc..but keeps me interested in the real science... which I do respect more than most I bet you.

Thanks I will do it..try is failure looking for a house to live.
alex

[xelasnave]

And I cant probably prove it because I dont know how long they knew for but I put something out there about it..lightning in volcanoes..I figured it could be there before that..and I am sure I have a drawing someplace where I have that ..maybe..but when I expect it to work a certain way and find out it does it give me..admitedly morosiphic hope but hope nevertheless..and mate I need it ...
I tried that mountain physics site the first time it was presented and could never get it up... will fix that for sure someway.
alex

[xelasnave]

Anyways I am happy with the way I figured how to give some quantification to the energy/particle possibilities.. within the context of where I started and the fact that I worked something out..and it is really the Sun energy in reverse...that was in my head so that is what sparked it I expect.
IN the bush..battery near flat,no fone, no net left
alex

[gman (Grant)]

I am no physicist nor a mathematician and I try to keep things as simple as possible but as I understand, no one really knows why gravity occurs.

Keplar and Newton drew up the basic laws of Gravity under the assumption that is a force of some type.
Einstein later worked out that gravity is not quite a force, but rather an artifact of the natural movement of objects through curved four-dimensional spacetime.

As everything is moving in the universe, I presume that everything will be under the same laws of gravity.

I don't really understand the "String Theory" or "Loop Quantum Gravity" but it all seems to me to be laws of attraction, not opposition.

I don't like the idea of push gavity

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

I don't know if this is relevent but the story on link below talks about confirming that gravity is a wave.

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2594259.htm

I found the story interesting although not sure if it related to the original thread. Caught the thread late.