The biggest optical ripoff

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Lee

Correct - that is why I said you would go public, and be none the worse off.... public physiotherapy - interesting concept! It is there, but try and access it.
Mmmm - remove profit from the health industry? That will make it easier to see a doctor! Not. You should move to your local communist state, I hear they have fantastic health systems!

From your friendly capitalist.....

No reason why alll doctors in the hospital system can't be on contracts or salaries or tenured like academic professors in universities are.

The current system encourages and promotes overservicing , fraudulent behaviour , and governments are better placed to get the best deals on equipment which they could order in bulk , rather than a hodgepodge of small private owned (by the health funds or groups of doctors or people who are not the least bit interested in anything but return on their investments) who don't have the same buying power.

Socialised health care is the way to go - better medical outcomes result from socialised health care , and at least everyone can afford the health care they require. Check out life expectancies in countries who have socialised healthcare and hospital systems and compare with the USA , the USA is worse even though the USA spends more per capita .... good source is the CIA's country files.

[Lee]

A lot (most really) of hospital doctors are salaried - a big reason they go and practice privately. I think if ALL doctors were forced to be on salaries as you say (don't know how this would be possible) - the waiting lists would blow out by double - why would the private surgeons/physicians see extra patients for no extra income - could have an extra coffee break instead.
Most "over-servicing" you see now is, in my opinion fuelled not by doctors wanting to earn more, but by being medico-legally defensive. The doc ordering the xray/blood test makes nothing from that at all.

[Zuts]

Originally Posted by Lee

A lot (most really) of hospital doctors are salaried - a big reason they go and practice privately. I think if ALL doctors were forced to be on salaries as you say (don't know how this would be possible) - the waiting lists would blow out by double - why would the private surgeons/physicians see extra patients for no extra income - could have an extra coffee break instead.
Most "over-servicing" you see now is, in my opinion fuelled not by doctors wanting to earn more, but by being medico-legally defensive. The doc ordering the xray/blood test makes nothing from that at all.

Exactly. As far as university tenured staff are concerned, who cares. Like we have a shortage who cares. Doctors on the other hand, if i was one and somebody was going to fix my salary as a surgeon then I would be off to NZ or the US or England. I would have to have rocks in my head to stay here and have my pay fixed by some beauracrat.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Zuts

Exactly. As far as university tenured staff are concerned, who cares. Like we have a shortage who cares. Doctors on the other hand, if i was one and somebody was going to fix my salary as a surgeon then I would be off to NZ or the US or England. I would have to have rocks in my head to stay here and have my pay fixed by some beauracrat.

Ummm, where did I say their only source income should be a salary ?

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Zuts

Exactly. As far as university tenured staff are concerned, who cares. Like we have a shortage who cares. Doctors on the other hand, if i was one and somebody was going to fix my salary as a surgeon then I would be off to NZ or the US or England. I would have to have rocks in my head to stay here and have my pay fixed by some beauracrat.

So the salaries /contracts are negotiated to a level that is attractive to them , and if a doctor is only practicing to make himself wealthy , you don't him treating you as he doesn't see your best medical interests as a high enough priority.

[Zuts]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

So the salaries /contracts are negotiated to a level that is attractive to them , and if a doctor is only practicing to make himself wealthy , you don't him treating you as he doesn't see your best medical interests as a high enough priority.

Sure, but you want a socialist medical system so how do you know what size of contract he has negotiated as you dont get to choose the docter.

Unless you think that is your right to know what people earn, normal people and not merchant bankers..........

Apart from this even if you did know his salary, how do you know he isn't the best cardiac surgeon in the country. So great, chop his salary and watch him go somewhere else to practise.

I just underwent cardiac surgery and got told I had a 3 in 100 chance of dying. If i had the money i know which surgeon i would want, so good luck to the people who can afford the best, and i hope like hell the best stay in this country and help the not so good to become better!

[Zuts]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Ummm, where did I say their only source income should be a salary ?

So where else does he get his income from? If you are saying he picks up jobs outside of the 10 or 12 hours a day he works for the government then I for one wouldnt want to be under his knife during hour 18 on a saturday night.

Or maybe you think he can sell organs on the black market?

[Ian Robinson]

Maybe you should look up how hospital and medical systems function in places with very much more socialised health systems like in the scandivian and european countries (where health outcomes are superior btw ), and how doctors and surgeons and other specialists function there .

How many hours will surgeons work , probably no more than than now in both private and public hospitals.

I think you are confusing the hours worked by residents (doctors who have completed there degrees and learning the ropes (invariably in public hospitals (as they do the training and do the widest range of procedures , the private hospitals mostly only take on low risk , highly profitable procedures) , and that the experienced guys and specialists work pretty much 9-5 but are on call as consultants if needed (in hospitals).

Where can they earn more under a proper medicare (public funded health system) , same ways as now if they are that way inclined.

Or do you advocate a system like in the USA .... where if you've no health insurance you'll not be able to get health care or hospital care and insurance costs families several thousand dollars per annum.

I guess you liked what Little Johnny wanted to do. Anyway

[Zuts]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Maybe you should look up how hospital and medical systems function in places with very much more socialised health systesm like in the scandivian and european countries (where health outcomes are superior btw , and how doctors and surgeons and other specialists else where .

How many hours will surgeons work , probably no more than than do now in both private and public hospitals.

I think you are confusing the hours worked by residents (doctors who have completed there degrees and learning the ropes (invariably in public hospitals (as they do the training and do the widest range of procedures , the private hospitals mostly only take on low risk , highly profitable procedures) , and that the experienced guys and specialists work pretty much 9-5 but are on call as consultants if needed (in hospitals).

Where can they earn more under a proper medicare (public funded health system) , same ways as now if they are that way inclined.

Or do you advocate a system like in the USA .... where if you've no health insurance you'll not be able to get help care or hospital care and insurance costs families several thousand dollars per annum.

I guess you liked what Little Johnny wanted to do. Anyway

hmm, i think you are confusing the quality of health care and peoples access to it. In terms of quality as in world class i would think the US of A has the absolute best medical system in the world.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Zuts

hmm, i think you are confusing the quality of health care and peoples access to it. In terms of quality as in world class i would think the US of A has the absolute best medical system in the world.

No it is not - this is proven by its standing in global terms wrt to health outcomes. Google it and see for yourself.

The key indicators are infant mortality rate and life expectancy at birth.

See table 5 in http://www.econ.duke.edu/Econ/Facult...ty_aug2008.pdf

See
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=0&v=29&l=en
USA is ranked very poorly. Australia (198th ... a high rank is better in this table) is ahead of the USA (178th).

USA is not flash wrt to life expectancy at birth (Australia is 11th , USA is 45th).

Despite the health system in the USA being the most expensive per head. More expensive is not necessarily higher quality when it comes to national health systems.. Go figure .... at that point , I'll leave you to do your own homework .

[toc (Tim)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

BTW dental work is a total rip off too

Too right - but it does pay to shop around. Early in the year I went to the dentist in the Melbourne CBD, and was told that I was going to need to get three root canals, at a total cost of $4000.

I went to to place closer to home, and was told I only needed one. Total cost was around $800. Mind you, one root canal is more than enough!

Back to the original post - I hadnt actually thought of it, but you are soooo right, especially with the frames!

I have astigmatism, and so cant get cheap lenses, but its obscene the price they charge for frames.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

BTW dental work is a total rip off too

Very true.. and the quality went down the tube.
I have fillings 25 years old (amalgam, not used any more).. and only 2 years old (some stuff cured with UV light that does not hold in longer.. they told me it is because amalgam contains mercury and therefore it is not safe to use). It is worth to mention that every time, new filling requires a bit of tooth material to be removed.. 3-4 times like that and there is nothing left to retain even amalgam..

What happened to Aesculap (or Hippocratic) Oath...?
I asked my friend, a doctor, once about his job.. and he told me "This is business, just like any other".
I was horrified.. Unfortunately, he was spot on.

[Terry B]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

No reason why alll doctors in the hospital system can't be on contracts or salaries or tenured like academic professors in universities are.

The current system encourages and promotes overservicing , fraudulent behaviour , and governments are better placed to get the best deals on equipment which they could order in bulk , rather than a hodgepodge of small private owned (by the health funds or groups of doctors or people who are not the least bit interested in anything but return on their investments) who don't have the same buying power.

Socialised health care is the way to go - better medical outcomes result from socialised health care , and at least everyone can afford the health care they require. Check out life expectancies in countries who have socialised healthcare and hospital systems and compare with the USA , the USA is worse even though the USA spends more per capita .... good source is the CIA's country files.

As one of those thathas worked both as salaried and fee for service I see both sides of the coin.
I know some very good quality specialists that work as salaried medicos. I would be very happy for them to look after me but I could not say they work terribly hard. It is great to look after a few patients to great depth. It is very interesting and an intellectual challenge. Unfortunately If I ask these same colleagues to review 10 extras people that are not as interesting meaning that they will work overtime and get no payment or even recognition from the system then they tend to say "try someone else". It is very hard to convince someone that they should do lots of extra work for no payment.
In the European countries commented on in other posts the staffing levels are much higher. Australia can choose to do this but the state govt(NSW) currently tells us it is broke and wont even fund the current staff. It's response is to reduce services and stuff the waiting lists.
We recently got told by our administrators that if someone is seen in an outpatient clinic and requires surgery that is a non emergency they will wait. If you are categorized as needing your surgery within 1 year then you will wait 1 year regardless of the fact that the salaried surgeon has space on his operating lists before then.
The complaining needs to be to the state health non on IIS.

[Smirnoff]

the biggest ripoff in the world would have to be Vet fees.

Nothing else comes close

[DJDD]

what about plumbers' fees? but then again maybe they should charge hefty fees for standing in someone else's "Number 2's "
(will this be censored?)

dentists? does anyone here want to fish around in other people's mouths all day? maybe that is worth a $ or $$ extra.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by DJDD

what about plumbers' fees? but then again maybe they should charge hefty fees for standing in someone else's "Number 2's "
(will this be censored?)

dentists? does anyone here want to fish around in other people's mouths all day? maybe that is worth a $ or $$ extra.

Nothing hard about plumbing - plastic (cut and glue) , copper (cut bend maybe and solder) , done all my own plumbing work about my house , never needed a plumber.
If I had gas - I might need one - but I doubt it - I know gas , and how to do deal with it .
Had a blocked sewer pipe once - hired the machine for 4 hours , didn't cost me much , pot the nose people into one end of the blocked pipe , turned on the power , and pushed the cable into the pipe until suddenly the water in the backed up pipe gushed away - job done in under 10 minutes. Easy, never even had to get any muck on my hands.

The neighbour (the looney one) had a plumber redo all his plumbing , charged by the hour , big mistake , cost the idiot a fortune and the plumber did everything the hard way and the long way (including digging up his blocked sewer pipe and replacing it - took 4 days , one to dig the trench - by hand (shovel) , one to rip up the old ceramic plpes (buy did it pong) , one to put down new , and one to put the dirt all back. And yes he had one of those machines in the back of the truck and never used it .... I asked him (the plumber) and he just smiled back at me. The loonie next door doesn't have a clue , but he really flipped when he got the bill of the plumber , pays to watch tradesmen in the building and plumbing trades very closely as they will take their time (and time is your money !!) if you don't.

[iceman (Mike)]

This thread has just turned into a place to complain and whine about every tradesman or the health system.

IIS is not the place for this.

Locked.