Omg ---> Fuel Prices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by edwardsdj

While there are many ways of producing hydrogen gas (it accumulates in lead-acid bateries for example) steam reforming of methane is at present the dominant mehtod of producing hydrogren on an industrial scale.

True , and that happens at high temperatures.

[mcross]

[QUOTE=edwardsdj;329248]I just worked writing software in the petroleum industry for almost five years. A few observations:

1. The days of finding large fields have been over for a couple of decades;
2. The oil companies keep downgrading thier estimates of the oil recoverable from thier reserves (Shell by 30% a few years ago);
3. No major survey by Western oil companies has been done in Saudi since the 1950s - odds are they have far less than they would like to have us believe;
4. The discoveries that are being made are a huge technical challenge (like drilling in 5km of water); and
5. World demand continues to increase every day - particularly from the rapidly growing Chinese economy.

You've hit the nail on the head. Read "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann for more on this grim picture...

Still, I was watching the news a year or two ago when I heard George W. Bush say something like "I can see us driving (alternatively powered) cars in the not too distant future".

It was one of those things that often just slip by without you really noticing and I said to my wife, "What did he just say? This is G W Bush - Texas oil - teling us that we will be driving these cars in the "not too distant future"? What does he know that we don't know?"

Made me feel some people are sitting on technology that we don't know about?

Cheers
Mark

[rat156]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Umm .... basic REDOX chemistry , no external power supply required to get H2 gas when you use the right catalyst.
Drop a bit of zinc into acid , hey presto , you get hydrogen generated.

ie
pure metal Cu(s) + 2HCl(aq) → CuCl2(aq) + H2(g)

Other ways shown here ; http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Hydrogen/

Umm... basic chemistry, that's not a catalytic reaction, HCl and Copper are consumed, eventually you'll run out of one or the other.

As they say on Mythbusters, WARNING, science content!

And to most of the rest of you on the Hydrogen as a fuel. Basic science, there's no such thing as a free lunch, which means if you plan to use hydrogen as a fuel, electrolysis of water as a source of that hydrogen, then you must use at least the same amount of energy to split it as is produced by the recombination. In practice, it takes more energy to produce the Hydrogen than you get back because no process is 100% efficient.

Now for the good news. Hydrogen as a fuel source is an excellent option. Used in fuel cells to drive electrically powered vehicles makes sense. You can get the Hydrogen from electrolysis of water, but you need to use a free energy source (the Sun) to provide the Hydrogen. People are actively working on solar electrolysis and I think are getting close to a solution.

Cheers
Stuart

[Karls48 (Karl)]

In my opinion the energy crisis is by far more urgent issue then whole global warming craze (and also partial solution to global warming if its cause is human activity). As the price of crude climbs to and over $250 a barrel economical chaos will start spreading around the world. It will take some time for the markets to realise this because markets today are dictated by the super funds with worldwide combine strength worth of trillions of dollars. Those super funds do not give hoot (and it is not their charter) about economical viability of any sector of world economy. They simply shift their funds to the area of economy where they can make maximum profit for their investment. The inertia of those huge amounts of money will carry the worsening economy for few years. Eventually your super will be worthless in real therms. As it has been pointed out by other people, the governments of any domination are not going to address this looming problem until it will right upon us. Their main concern is how to win next election. This is a bad side of the democracy. The pressure political groups like Greenies do not offer viable solution to those problems because their alternative policies are dictated by the ideology instead of sound economic.[/font]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Australia is an indeed lucky country with its huge mineral resources, ability to produce enough food to sustain its small population and its stable political system. Present population is easy to mange by country governments as its temper is not volatile, not prone to rioting or revolutions (that may change with influx of the migrans with lesser tolerance to the unjust government policies). Australia got vast coal reserve able to provide all Australia’s energy needs for maybe next 200 to 300 years. Coal can be processed to petrol with technologies dating back to the Second World War. So far it looks like we got it made. But do we?
As the economic crisis spread around the world with its associated hunger and misery one or the other government with reach for age old solution - blame neighbouring country that may be doing marginally better, for all of your problems. And if that country embraces different religion – even better. One country invades other one, other countries will declare war because of defence treaties or simply because they feel threaten by imbalance of power. And before you blink there is Third World War. The casuality’s will run to the billions of people. In the way it will provide solution to the economical crisis for next hundred years or so. But at what costs?
Many of you will say that I’m totally wrong and I sincerely hope that I’m. Not for my own sake because by the time this scenario may happen I will be long time six foot under. But for shake of my kid. If in the year 2050 someone still alive will remember this tread, send me an email and tell me - you were so wrong you doomsday prophet. And I will lie in my grave contend and happy that mankind and my son got a future to look up to.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by rat156

Umm... basic chemistry, that's not a catalytic reaction, HCl and Copper are consumed, eventually you'll run out of one or the other.

As they say on Mythbusters, WARNING, science content!

And to most of the rest of you on the Hydrogen as a fuel. Basic science, there's no such thing as a free lunch, which means if you plan to use hydrogen as a fuel, electrolysis of water as a source of that hydrogen, then you must use at least the same amount of energy to split it as is produced by the recombination. In practice, it takes more energy to produce the Hydrogen than you get back because no process is 100% efficient.

Now for the good news. Hydrogen as a fuel source is an excellent option. Used in fuel cells to drive electrically powered vehicles makes sense. You can get the Hydrogen from electrolysis of water, but you need to use a free energy source (the Sun) to provide the Hydrogen. People are actively working on solar electrolysis and I think are getting close to a solution.

Cheers
Stuart

I know that it isn't (a catalytic reaction). Thanks anyway.

[fringe_dweller]

Originally Posted by edwardsdj

1. The days of finding large fields have been over for a couple of decades;
2. The oil companies keep downgrading thier estimates of the oil recoverable from thier reserves (Shell by 30% a few years ago);
3. No major survey by Western oil companies has been done in Saudi since the 1950s - odds are they have far less than they would like to have us believe;
4. The discoveries that are being made are a huge technical challenge (like drilling in 5km of water); and

at what point/price a barrel does the shale oil fields/ and other non easy to extract oil become viable? and remember there are shi*loads of this stuff!! prolly more than the easy to extract stuff was in the first place, i seem to remember qld had some huge shale oil fields!? yeeehaaa!! texas tea - take a long time to run out of that stuff!
anyone noticed how cheap new motorbikes and scooters are getting!!, practically giving them away! dropping 1000's a year off new price! sure you'll have to eat bugs, but still mobile? if there were no 4WD's and cars on the road i would go back to bike's in a heartbeat - look forward to the day

[acropolite (Phil)]

The NSW town of Glen Davis was famous for it's shale oil works. One thing we need to remember here is that we are burning the reserves of fossil fuel, natures carbon storage.

Rather than pulling more of this stuff out of the ground we should be going head on in to renewables research.

One promising technology that has been trialled is bio-char, where organic material is heated (without oxygen therefore no C02 is produced) to extract volatile components which can be used as fuel.
Apparently the heat needed for this process can be obtained directly from solar and the by product after the extraction for fuel is simply charcoal which is quite stable and can be used to dramatically enhance the soil.

The south american indians used char to improve fertility of their soils.

This is probably the most exciting development in renewables as the raw material can be anything from roadside weeds to forestry harvest leftovers which have up till now been burned releasing huge amounts of C02 in to the environment.

[rat156]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

I know that it isn't (a catalytic reaction). Thanks anyway.

So why did you write that it was.?

Not to be too critical, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but it's stuff like this that causes problems with science. The proliferation of pseudo-science can be directly attributable to the poor communication of scientists.

As a scientist (Chemistry degree, Masters, still studying for that PhD), I try to correct anything I see which is blatantly wrong or misleading. Unfortunately for some people a little education means that they are an instant expert in the field. These fora are a perfect example, I have taken an astroimage, therefore I know everything there is to know about the subject (OK a slight exaggeration ;-)). So I get really pissed off when my chosen field is taken in vain.

I also have to apologise in advance as I'm in the US at the moment, and I'm a bit pissed off with their general attitude anyway, so sorry if I'm taking it out on you (it's cathartic, so I feel justified).

Cheers
Stuart

P.S. You wanna here the 'mercans scream about petrol prices as they approach $4/gallon!!!!!!

[fringe_dweller]

Thanks Phil, one would hope the technology of extraction has moved on since 1938! my point is that when that hypothetical economically viable price parity has been reached, oil prices will surely plateau for a very long time?
you might be pleased to read that i recently bought a pushbike (mountainbike) first pushy in 20 years, and boy have they progressed! hydraulic assisted dic brakes back and front, ect. ect. like floating on a cloud! just got to figure out how to avoid regular punctures, damn 3 corner jacks!
thats interesting stuff there too!! hope it happens!

funny thing is, our local fuel prices per litre have only just matched what i was paying in the UK nearly 20 years ago! i know, i know they have great public transport and all close together ect. but not if you lived in the scottish countryside, which i did, and drove 70ks a day to work and back!

boy sure gotta feel sorry for the people who live in outer suburbs and nearby countryside, I can hear the house prices dropping from here!?

[xelasnave]

There was talk of a GST removal on petrol...what about if they dont go for that... a pensioner relief..no GST for them on fuel...
Wow is that a big help for Mr Swan..fix every
thing politically in one hit.
He was accused of leaving the poor pensioners out of the pie slicing and was seen nervously twitching when the opposition leader said he would cut excise...well send me a small something for thinking of the idea Mr Swan and call if you need any more help..
alex

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by rat156

So why did you write that it was.?

Not to be too critical, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but it's stuff like this that causes problems with science. The proliferation of pseudo-science can be directly attributable to the poor communication of scientists.

As a scientist (Chemistry degree, Masters, still studying for that PhD), I try to correct anything I see which is blatantly wrong or misleading. Unfortunately for some people a little education means that they are an instant expert in the field. These fora are a perfect example, I have taken an astroimage, therefore I know everything there is to know about the subject (OK a slight exaggeration ;-)). So I get really pissed off when my chosen field is taken in vain.

I also have to apologise in advance as I'm in the US at the moment, and I'm a bit pissed off with their general attitude anyway, so sorry if I'm taking it out on you (it's cathartic, so I feel justified).

Cheers
Stuart

P.S. You wanna here the 'mercans scream about petrol prices as they approach $4/gallon!!!!!!

That's fine .... I should have made the separation clearer , the two comments were two separate paragraphs ....

You are welcome to correct me ,or point out ambiguities or things that I might say they that are imprecise .... I don't mind , I wont ever be offended , heck I know I'm far from perfect and it's been a while since I did my BE in Chem Eng and my chemistry studies.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

There was talk of a GST removal on petrol...what about if they dont go for that... a pensioner relief..no GST for them on fuel...
Wow is that a big help for Mr Swan..fix every
thing politically in one hit.
He was accused of leaving the poor pensioners out of the pie slicing and was seen nervously twitching when the opposition leader said he would cut excise...well send me a small something for thinking of the idea Mr Swan and call if you need any more help..
alex

Would mean everyone on a pension card would have present it at the servostation to get the exemption - it should not just be age pensions , but all holders of healthcare cards and pensioner cards irrespective of age.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Would mean everyone on a pension card would have present it at the servostation to get the exemption - it should not just be age pensions , but all holders of healthcare cards and pensioner cards irrespective of age.

...

You should be on the committee to get this thing going.
alex

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

...

You should be on the committee to get this thing going.
alex

I'm game .... if I can telecommute I'm interested and want to help (I'm also concerned about discrimination against the long term unemployed , the mature age unemployed (who have skills) and discrimination against obese (because they happen to be fat and are not skinny) jobseekers and against disabled jobseekers ) , how do I join it ?

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

I'm game .... if I can telecommute I'm interested and want to help (I'm also concerned about discrimination against the long term unemployed , the mature age unemployed (who have skills) and discrimination against obese (because they happen to be fat and are not skinny) jobseekers and against disabled jobseekers ) , how do I join it ?

Write your experience and formal application on a $100 note and send it to me...
alex

[White Rabbit]

Get your cars converted to gas, I have 4lt car and it costs me about $35 for about 25km of city driving. Petrol would cost me about $70. It's also better for the environment.

[CoombellKid]

Originally Posted by White Rabbit

Get your cars converted to gas, I have 4lt car and it costs me about $35 for about 25km of city driving. Petrol would cost me about $70. It's also better for the environment.

$35 for 25kms jeez boy!!! my 4lt ford will get me to Lismore and
back for around $20 and that's about 110kms and I pass through two towns.
Ok it's not Sydney, so I'm probably forgetting about the time you guys
spend just sitting in traffic.

I used to have to drive from Sandringham to Dee Why for work, now that
was a PITA... lets see the airport bottle neck then Harbour tunnel bottle
neck, then the dang Split Bridge bottle neck... and lordy help you if the
thing got jammed open, which it did occassionly. Now I live in the bush
on the north coast and if you see half a dozen cars on the 25km drive to
town, we call that gridlocked

I truly feel for you guys driving around Sydney, just glad I dont live there
anymore.

regards,CS

[Geoff45 (Geoff)]

Originally Posted by ving

fit a family of 4 on a bike...

In India I have seen a family of 5 on a bike. Dad driving, kid in front of Dad, mum and another kid sitting sideways at the back and mum holding a baby--What's the problem?

[Dooghan (Dooghan)]

I like to download and listen to the ABC: The Science Show each week. Over the past weeks they have had some stories about making hydrogen from algae and also water, aluminium and gallium. Really interesting. Here's the links

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow...08/2224016.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow...08/2243094.htm

[Deeno]

Originally Posted by White Rabbit

Get your cars converted to gas, I have 4lt car and it costs me about $35 for about 25km of city driving. Petrol would cost me about $70. It's also better for the environment.

Forgot to include all the $$$$ on tolls for the privilege of driving on our third world road network