NSW Govt has banned laser pointers TODAY.

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by ngcles

I'm not defending the decision by the government -- I believe it sucks so bad it blows. But as I understand it, those are the facts.

G'day Les,

Everything you wrote is correct as far as I understand. One small point, the Australian standard (AS2211.1:2004) for laser classification is not exactly the same as used in the US. But for practical purposes a 5mw Class IIIa (US Standard) collimator would probably be equivalent to a class 3R (Australian Standard) and sadly still a prohibited weapon. Class 3R "Radiation in this class is considered low risk, but potentially hazardous."

Just my opinion below:

At this stage there is no draft legislation to review, and until then we don't really know what is going to be controlled or not. If people actually want to do something, I'd suggest writing to the premier, police minister and your local member about the legitimate uses of laser products in astronomy (preferably in conjunction with your astronomical club/society). Remember the legislation has not been written yet, let alone gone through parliament and so far the government has indicated that they are sympathetic to legitimate laser use by amateur astronomers.

I know that certain members of the ASNSW are planning to participate in this process as much as we can to try and make the final legislation workable for amateur astronomers.

I'd also suggest that arguing for allowing anything greater than a class 3R laser is going to be futile as the Australian Standard requires that operators of these products receive comprehensive safety training and be used within strict safety guidelines.

I'd be interested to hear people's comments on the following http://www.pangolin.com/faa/laser-aircraft-animation-and-explanation.htm.
This is supposedly the effects of a 5mw laser on the pilot / cockpit of an outbound plane (admittedly on a simulator). It certainly gave me some food for thought.

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

My laser is 5mW and red .... so I guess I am safe.

Not if the Premier's press statements are what passes as legislation. You will have a class 3, hand held laser and therefore a prohibited weapon.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

Not if the Premier's press statements are what passes as legislation. You will have a class 3, hand held laser and therefore a prohibited weapon.

Yep , but mine is never used as a pointing device.

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Yep , but mine is never used as a pointing device.

Hi Ian,

I assume you are talking about a collimator? According to the Premier's press statement the laws will apply to any "hand held" laser, which would also apply to collimators.

Cheers.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by ngcles

(ii) anything designed to be fired or otherwise propelled from a prohibited weapon (for example, an arrow or dart) must be kept separate from the prohibited weapon while it is being conveyed,

So if you get a permit, you need a black hole of sorts to keep the photons in?????

But ...correct me if I am wrong, the Habeas Corpus defense may work....i.e asking the impossible.

(habeas corpus is the fundamental instrument for safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary and lawless state action)

P.S. As the as agency said that lost the Schweppes account. "Jesuschwepped!! "

[Zuts]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Yep , but mine is never used as a pointing device.

My 20mw green laser is never used period, it just sits in my equipment case, and it's now illegal to posess it. I cant legally sell it without a permit so what should I do?

What a stupid backdated law

Paul

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

Hi Ian,

I assume you are talking about a collimator? According to the Premier's press statement the laws will apply to any "hand held" laser, which would also apply to collimators.

Cheers.

Yes it is .

And I'll wait and see what happens wrt regulations : possession of a precision colimating laser (a scientific instrument) by an astronomer (amateur or pro) is totally legitimate .

[Paul Hatchman]

Some more information on laser pointers and aircraft safety can be found here:

http://www.pangolin.com/resguide09c....ulator-studies

All very interesting.

[g__day (Matthew)]

Standard classification for lasers


From: wellison@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: sci.electronics
Subject: CDRH Laser regulations
Date: 28 Feb 94 10:33:39 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
As posted by the Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) regulation 21 CFR 1040.10 and 21 CFR 1040.11, the standard classification for lasers are as follows:

Class I laser product

No known biological hazard. The light is shielded from any possible viewing by a person and the laser system is interlocked to prevent the laser from being on when exposed. (large laser printers such as the DEC LPS-40 has a 10mW HeNe driving it which is a Class IIIb laser, but the printer is interlocked so as to prevent any contact with the exposed laser beam, hence the device produces no known biological hazard, even though the actual laser is Class IIIb. This would also apply to CD and small laser printers, as they are Class I devices).
Class II laser products

Power up to 1 milliwatt. These lasers are not considered a optically dangerous device as the eye reflex will prevent any occular damage. (I.E. when the eye is hit with a bright light, the eye lid will automatically blink or the person will turn thier head so as to remove the bright light. This is called the reflex action or time. Class II lasers won't cause eye damage in this time period. Still, one wouldn't want to look at it for an extended period of time.) Caution labels (yellow) should be placed on the laser equipment. No known skin exposure hazard exist and no fire hazard exist.
Class IIIa laser products

Power output between 1 milliwatt and 5 milliwatt. These lasers can produce spot blindness under the right conditions and other possible eye injuries. Products that have a Class IIIa laser should have a laser emission indicator to tell when the laser is in operation. They should also have a Danger label and output aperature label attatched to the laser and/or equipment. A key operated power switch SHOULD be used to prevent unauthorized use. No known skin hazard of fire hazard exist.
Class IIIb laser products

Power output from 5 milliwatts to 500 milliwatts. These lasers are considered a definate eye hazard, particularly at the higher power levels, which WILL cause eye damage. These lasers MUST have a key switch to prevent unathorized use, a laser emission indicator, a 3 to 5 second time delay after power is applied to allow the operator to move away from the beam path and a mechanical shutter to turn the beam off during use. Skin may be burned at the higher levels of power output as well as the flash point of some materials which could catch fire. (I have seen 250mW argons set a piece of red paper on fire in less than 2 seconds exposure time !) A red DANGER label and aperature label MUST be affixed to the laser.
Class IV laser products

Power output >500 milliwatts. These CAN and WILL cause eye damage. The Class IV range CAN and WILL cause materials to burn on contact as well as skin and clothing to burn. These laser systems MUST have: A key lockout switch to prevent unauthorized use Inter-locks to prevent the system from being used with the protective covers off Emission indicators to show that the laser is in use Mechanical shutters to block the beam Red DANGER labels and aperature labels affixed to the laser
The reflected beam should be considered as dangerous as the primary beam. (again, I have seen a 1,000 watt CO2 laser blast a hole through a piece of steel, so imagine what it would do to your eye !)

And the new classification system is espoused well here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

PS

Class 4 lasers cost less than most decent scopes, could be used as weapons, and can range in size from table top to packet of cigarettes!

[ngcles]

Hi Paul & All,

Paul Wrote:

"At this stage there is no draft legislation to review, and until then we don't really know what is going to be controlled or not. If people actually want to do something, I'd suggest writing to the premier, police minister and your local member about the legitimate uses of laser products in astronomy (preferably in conjunction with your astronomical club/society). Remember the legislation has not been written yet, let alone gone through parliament and so far the government has indicated that they are sympathetic to legitimate laser use by amateur astronomers."

If I know anything about these processes (and believe me I do) the legislation has probably already been framed and awaits a few rubber-stamps at the Criminal Law Review Division and by the Parliamentary Draftsman (who actually frames and checks the exact wording). They don't hold press conferences like this until they are _well_ down the track.

I have previously written to Mr Debus and Mr Campbell a couple of weeks ago. I got a two line reply from Mr David Campbell (Police Mnister) yesterday saying that the matters I have raised will recieve due attention ... thank you.

Without wanting to be overly dramatic, we are past the writing letters stage.

Time is of the essence now.

I believe a personal delegation to the Premier or Police Minister is needed before it is introduced to parliament. If you are going to organise one, I'm very interested in being a part of it. It reallyhas to be done in the next week to 10 days I'd reckon otherwise it will be all through and put to bed and at that stage, the concrete will have well and truly set.

The interesting (alarming, hypocritical) thing is in the video of the press conference is where you can see one of these "high-powered weapons of mass murder" actually being demonstrated and shone around in the room onto reflective surfaces (plastic, glass) for the benefit of the press to show how dangerous it is.

If they are really that dangerous, why do that in a room full of journos ...

If it was a firearm would they do it ???


Best,

Les D

[robgreaves]

It's all just political Stercus Tauri I'm afraid.

It's really sad this country has come to this, as we went to great lengths and expense to move from the UK where this sort of thing is so prevalent now, to come to 'no-nonsense Australia', but I'm beginning to wonder how 'no nonsense' this country is after all now...

For instance, the latest thing likely to be banned in the UK is taking photographs in public places, for the fear you're a terrorist scoping out a terror act. Until now, you have been able to use a camera in a public place with only the occasional arrest under the prevention of terrorism act, held in a cell, grilled, pictures deleted, then released - unless you used a tripod, in which case you were definitely hauled in. It's really got the photography fraternity's backs up, that one.

A friend of mine in the UK who flies model jets was spotted in his garage with radio control transmitters, cans of jet fuel, and was arrested under the prevention of terrorism act. Held in a cell for a couple of days, grilled, then his house turned upside down by the police, then released with no charge. A real erosion of your rights as a citizen to partake in a hobby.

I could do a lot more damage to someone, if I really wanted to, with a BigW soup ladle than my laser collimator. And when it's fixed in a focuser, is it hand held any more? What about I put it in my focuser before I leave home?

I can tell that smarmy idiot in Government hasn't really thought this one through... They really are barking up the wrong tree.

Regards,
Rob.

[Garyh]

One thing I havn`t noticed mentioned is what is mean`t by HAND HELD?
A collimator is not a hand held device. Be pretty hard trying to collimate a scope like that I bet!
It is only used when attached to a focuser. To me thats not hand held.
Same as a laser permanently mounted to a scope.
Isn`t it legal in Victoria when they are mounted in something and not hand held..?
Looking at the cockpit simulation, now hows gonna get within 1200ft to flash someone with a 5mw pointer unless you are on the runway or right beside it...gees
Class 3a should not be put in the same wagon as higher rated lasers and not go under this legislation.
I don`t have a pointer but my laser level in the shed will be a illegal weagon too!

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

If you can remove it from a focuser or cradle, aim it at a person, push a button and land a red dot on them it's hand-held.

[robgreaves]

What about the fact my collimator is barlowed, meaning the beam is highly divergent? I'll happily aim the beam at myself, if you want, with no ill effects. At about a metre, the energy in the beam has reduced by virtue of being spread over an area a few thousand times larger than at the collimator's exit port.

For this ruling to make sense, there must be legislation on beam divergence or convergence? Where is that written down?

I'm still staggered that these technology-shy political numpties in government still haven't considered blink aversion; the body's own defence mechanism for protecting the eyes against bright light.

Consider a camera flash lasts approximately 1/1000000th (a millionth) of a second. How many photos of people have their eyes shut? Blink aversion is a phenominally fast involuntary reaction built into the human body to protect the eyes. To want to, and continue to stare down a parallel green high power laser beam is physically impossible.

Again, where are the statistics of pilots blinded (talking loss of vision here, not 'noticed a dim green light outside') through staring into a laser beam? Hmm - I thought so - none.

Regards,
Rob.

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by robgreaves

For this ruling to make sense, there must be legislation on beam divergence or convergence? Where is that written down?

If you are lucky, you may fall withing class 1M. "Class 1M usually relates to laser products with high divergence or large beam diameters compared to the limiting aperture." This is assumign the barlow can not be removed as lasers are classed by the maximum output under their worst failure mode.

Originally Posted by robgreaves

Again, where are the statistics of pilots Blinded (loss of vision) through staring in a laser beam? Hmm - I thought so - none.

This has been studied fairly thorougly be the american faa. (See either of the links I have posted previously in this thread). While there have been cases of damage to pilot's eyes, the problem is with what they call "distraction and startle", "glare and disruption" and "temporary flash blindness". My reading of the faa study is that 5mw green lasers essentially cause minimal problems unless more than about 350 metres from the cockpit, making helicopters more susceptible than other aircraft. But please check it out for yourself http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/m...media/0409.pdf

[adebear]

Wouldn't the aircraft company be able to create a windscreen covering material that attenuated the few select frequencies these common ebay lasers focus on. that would stop most of the issues and protect pilots.

[ving (David)]

i cant believe this but i am about to stick up for the govt...

there have been so many reports lately of people hitting planes with thier lasers that i doubt there is anything else that can be done but ban them.... how else do you stop people from aiming at planes?

so many suffer because of so few...

idiots.

[rmcpb (Rob)]

Problem is Dave that the idiots will not hand in their lasers and the legit users will. Just like in the case of the gun laws!!

Problem will not go away at all, the pollies seem to think they can put genies back into the bottle

[Cerberus]

...along with all the associated costs with keeping and maintaining the item as well.
If you already have a permit it will reduce costs, as you can put the pointer in a safe, and maybe the permit for the other item can be amended to include the pointer?
the other issue is, someone said, using the laser pointer on private property is ok, it's only on public areas where police can search you and you need a bona fide reason for having it, anyone confirm this? importation without permit will still be banned, but if true maybe it can still be sold through the shops only for private use

[ngcles]

Hi Cerebrus & All,

As for Class III and IV lasers, if they do include them in Schedule 1 of the Prohibited Weapons Act (as the Premier has announced) it won't make a scrap of difference -- public, private; its possession is an offence under the Act and _potentially_ renders you liable to a 14 year term of imprisonment.

Re: other "low-powered" lasers (ie red-dot type) it will only be a problem in a public place and in the absence of a "reasonable excuse".

No I don't believe (based on the announcement) you will be able to tack it on to your other permit. Firearms are under a completely different Act (Firearms Act) for starters. A permit under the Weapons Prohibition Act is a whole other bucket of fish.

Sorry to bring such bad news, but them's the facts as I understand 'em.

Best,

Les D