The autonomous driving that is legal in Australia atm is really just driving assist tools, such as lane keeping and smart cruise control. The driver is still 100% responsible for the driving and needs to be alert and ready to take full control in an emergency situation. I view these tools in the same way as I view standard cruise control when it was introduced - it is just a tool available to the driver, and the driver still must pay attention and be prepared to take action.
Alot of other arguments in this thread about "what would the AI do in this situation?" are all moot since the driver must be in control of the vehicle. Just as I do not use cruise control on wet roads, the choice to deploy drive assist tools should be made accordingly to the conditions on the road.
Without straw men there would be no discussion
I never would have thought to take control of a car in flood waters I guess ..
Good to have sensible input...I hope you are going well.
Alex
There is a valid application for such equipment, agriculture.
A modern planter, drawn by a 500 hp tractor, is so complicated, the 'driver' has no time to steer the tractor, so rely's on the auto steer function.
And whilst we are on the subject, electric tractors are not gunna work, ever, unless some really radical breakthroughs in tech happen. EG: A 500 hp tractor, say 380 kw, usually runs at pretty well full power, or sometimes more, when planting,harvesting etc. At that power, the biggest Tesla battery, which is 120 kwh, would last 120/380 hours, or about 18 minutes. Then another battery will be needed, giving another 18 minutes of work, now continue that for 23 hours a day during harvest, and you will need nearly 70 battery's, at $30k each. Got a spare 2 million ?
There is an application, the market garden with a 30 hp tractor would work.
A modern planter, drawn by a 500 hp tractor, is so complicated, the 'driver' has no time to steer the tractor, so rely's on the auto steer function.
Comments ?
Simply untrue. You have to steer and keep an eye on the hopper level. That's it, assuming you're not getting clogged by trash. The rates are set (it's not a harvester) so don't need to be fiddled. I know coz I grew up on the land and did it as a child... GPS is for pretty lines and convenience
I think that semi-autonomous function is probably good in agriculture in some settings (To aid the operator when doing tasks which would otherwise be stultifyingly boring) but that news clipping is showing that in agricultural use the issues that the same problems of "How much data is enough" apply as they do to cars.
Plug the wrong data into a "Dumb" system that does not have clearance sensors or forget to program an obstacle and here you are. The problem in Ag though would be (And the crashes into power poles probably just highlights this) that as in cars, automate the basic driving of the machine when you are sowing a couple of hundred acres at a time and the operator's attention is invariably going to wander.
I do have to admit that a mostly autonomous Merc would leave me with more confidence than a Tesla given that the company is not founded so much in the "Take risks" ethos of a relative startup that seems to spill over in to sending safety critical stuff into the market effectively to test it using paying customers, under a name that hints at a lot higher level of capacity than it actually has.
From what I've read, the use of internal combustion engines in some areas will be with us for some time yet. It just maybe fossil fuel won't be used.
That would seem more than reasonable.
The problem I see with either side of the electric car / fosill fuel etc arguement is things must be black or white...we must go electric..everything! No exceptions or the IC crew fight the electric car as if it were evil...there are places for both no doubt and before folk become dogmatic about getting rid of fossil fuel perhaps a regime of sensible energy use could be tried...it bothers me the number of lights on at night that are unnecessary, or the waste of fuel on toys and un necessary stuff... limits on motor size for racing perhaps...in Asia they drag race 150 cc motor bikes and it seems like a lot of fun and the engineering challenge is obvious so why not? Let's get real with tractor pulling...multi motor tractors just need to go...change the V8 Super Cars to V4 s... now I don't know what fuel could be saved but the important thing is it would be helpful to change this more power mentality that wastes resources...
In any event we are predominantly in a market economy and new products simply need to be better to survive...I find it funny that the reason Tesla cars seem to be loved is because of their acceleration...that seems the first comment from owners but tells us the market wants better than before...autonomous cars will win because they will be better and that is only a matter of time...all the concerns, misgivings and straw man legal issues will be overcome simply because finally the market will demand a car that is easier to drive...And the folk who protest really remind me of the people who claim you are not really driving unless you have a manual transmission... And I admit once I was like that...automatics are for sooks...but now take my little red car ( Mazda MX 5) it is a 2 litre auto and if you want to play manual just hit the paddles on the steering wheel...honestly better that a manual and sure there are times when manual is comforting..like going into a corner when auto feels a little floaty..well hit your paddle and down shift...fantastic.
And I expect all those who voice opposition will learn to love the autonomous car of the future...maybe you only use the feature one the freeway or in peek hour traffic but you will adapt it's facilities to suit..that is what humans do...if you want your car to drive in flood waters perhaps get a boat.
I reckon Alex you are probably right in that eventually autonomous cars will become the norm. It is a bit like the current trend towards utes out of their equivalent SUV (I still hate that term) 20 years ago the talk was how far your average SUV had come in terms of ride and handling, and how model "blah" now handled amazingly, for an SUV. Now some of those set the bar pretty high, and they are starting to talk about how the new Ranger for instance drives and rides very well, for a ute... A couple of years more development and the "For a ute" bit will disappear. The same sort of development must eventually happen with autonomous cars. Right now it might be "They usually make better decisions than an L plater" but give it ten years and it will be "Oh, sorry, have we arrived? I was asleep" and the sooner the mainstream makers get in on the party the better.
Just so long as I can still go and enjoy a drive on the weekend in something small and light where I get to do the work. Your Mazda would be nice, though I am one of those folk who would rather a manual.
For me, a paddle shift would have to be paired with a DSG type gearbox. I have not driven a modern one but I hated the way the early ones behaved where you had to order up the gear change you wanted a second or so before you wanted it!
Just so long as I never see another car with the horrid electronics integration that my current work car has where among other things it constantly pops up messages on it's display which obscure the data you actually want, the one that particularly annoys me is "Shift denied" when you ask for a shift and it does not want to give it to you, next is "Grade braking active" when it decides to downshift, and the message stays there until it stops doing it or you manually dismiss it, until next time!
Well, there is one gear to match the electric motor to the drive but that is all.
A Tesla S high performance model can get to 200 miles per hour with that arrangement so what would a gear box do?
Gearboxes in petrol and diesel vehicles are used to match the performance of the motor to the required road speed.
Electric motors are close to ideal for traction use supplying maximum torque from zero speed to maximum.
Actually not quite the case that electric motors don't require a gearbox. They are at their best when stalled (Maximum torque at 0 RPM) but after a certain speed, efficiency falls off. If that is actually going to matter in a real world EV when they get more mainstream and start getting away from the (Largely Tesla inspired) sub 4 second 0 to 100KMH times is another question. If you could gear a real world family hauler EV (Say a size equivalent to a Sorento/Kluger/Pathfinder sized SUV, as the current replacement for a Falcon wagon 20 years ago) so that when pressed it can do say, 6 seconds 0 to 100KMH, and still be in a good RPM range at 110KMH, then maybe they don't need a gearbox, but there has been talk around for ages about two speed gearsets for EVs to give both the current EV party trick of headrest smashing acceleration from a standstill plus efficient operation at higher cruising speeds that you might find in Germany for instance.
I might be anti "Autonomous" or semi autonomous cars as they currently exist, but I am not anti EV. Give the batteries another generation or two of development and some catch up of charging infrastructure and they are going to become pretty compelling for most sensible uses. Aside from current price they probably are compelling right now for most commuter use. If I did not regularly need long range and towing capacity (If I was just commuting for work with my current 140KM round trip) they would be pretty attractive to me even now and would certainly be so for my wifes 40KM round trip.
For me, a paddle shift would have to be paired with a DSG type gearbox. I have not driven a modern one but I hated the way the early ones behaved where you had to order up the gear change you wanted a second or so before you wanted it!
Just so long as I never see another car with the horrid electronics integration that my current work car has where among other things it constantly pops up messages on it's display which obscure the data you actually want, the one that particularly annoys me is "Shift denied" when you ask for a shift and it does not want to give it to you, next is "Grade braking active" when it decides to downshift, and the message stays there until it stops doing it or you manually dismiss it, until next time!
Hi Paul,
Skip the DSG, they also have the gear change lag. The best transmission available now has been around for years, the 8 speed ZF (https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...f-eight-speed/). I have one in my F-Type Jag and it's just like a manual tranny, engine braking and all, it is simply brilliant. It is fitted to many high performance vehicles.
Interestingly it is more efficient than the manual transmission fitted to the F-Type. I bought the car in The Netherlands, where you are taxed on the CO2 emmissions of the vehicle, the tax was less on the Auto version than the manual.
At the moment the only production electric car which has more than a single speed seems to be Porsche.
All the others seem to work well with just a single gear. Manufacturers are probably quite keen to avoid an expensive gearbox.
No one seems to find the performance unsatisfactory. I have driven a BYD which is certainly not a Tesla in the acceleration, or price, department but it has no problems keeping up at the lights. The owner owed a Porsche and is not granny on the way to the shops.
Despite promises of a stunning breakthrough in batteries for more than 20 years what has happened is gradual improvement, more normal in engineering really.
What we have now is workable which is why almost? all major manufacturers are going electric. Of course regulations in most countries make that essential. Even Toyota is getting on board.
As I have commented before autonomous vehicles remain a dream pending a major breakthrough. The electric vehicles being sold now are adequate for most and perform well. The ones with less range would require more stops for long trips but it is not absurd or even brave to contemplate say BNE to SYD in a BYD.
Modern large scale farming couldn't exist without self driving tractors, indeed, the operator has so much to do that he/she doesn't have the time to drive ! This is especially so when pulling a 48 row planter that digs the furrow, plants the seed, inoculates it and then covers it up in one pass.
And this could lead onto a comment re electric vehicles, especially tractors.
A modern broad-acre machine is rated at around 500/1000 hp, some even have 2 engines. Assume 400 kw, then the biggest Tesla battery pak is around 150 kwh, so would last 150/450 hours, or about 20 minutes, then u need another and another etc, for 23 hours per day during planting/harvest. Anyone see a problem with calling for electric everything ?
Modern large scale farming couldn't exist without self driving tractors, indeed, the operator has so much to do that he/she doesn't have the time to drive ! This is especially so when pulling a 48 row planter that digs the furrow, plants the seed, inoculates it and then covers it up in one pass.
And this could lead onto a comment re electric vehicles, especially tractors.
A modern broad-acre machine is rated at around 500/1000 hp, some even have 2 engines. Assume 400 kw, then the biggest Tesla battery pak is around 150 kwh, so would last 150/450 hours, or about 20 minutes, then u need another and another etc, for 23 hours per day during planting/harvest. Anyone see a problem with calling for electric everything ?
All that is needed is a central battery bank and a long lead so no problem ..this is not a new idea ..for example I think that is the way they power the machines that tow huge ships thru the Panama Canal...the only problem is folk not thinking outside the box and remain stuck in a narrow minded attitude that things can't be done...I have heard you say that you believe all things are possible so why not all electric farm machinery..or is this one thing that is just not possible? The central battery bank can be charged by solar panels and wind generators and do away with the need to do things the old way.
Plus why not have an army of smaller machines rather than one single big unit...say 20 self drive machines each following a plotted course...as one runs out of power it returns to the central charging station for a recharge...multiple small investments not one huge one..down time for repair will never be a problem as you send the units needing repair or maintenance back to a central place that can now afford to employ experts...and the rest continue doing the job...
The fact is everything must change and we need to stop wasting fossil fuels for energy and save them to make all the important products that come from coal and oil...even though there seems like there is plenty of oil and coal it is finite and when world population trebles or more as it must do we are going to need much more fertilizer and nail polish remover...we need to prepare for a world of many fold more people...say 20 billion or more.
As international law becomes more recognised there will be less wars and conflict, that plus the better management of killer pandemics like covid 19 and our new ability to produce effective vaccines much faster, will all help to ensure population grows to the sort of level that we can work on colonizing other planets...at no point in history has the future of humanity been so wonderful and clearly things are just getting better and better....poverty and crime is dropping and everyone is far better off than ever before in history.
Clearly also the huge harvesters and seeders must be shelved as it is really a thing of the past and we need to move forward and find better ways to do such a simple job... why not go back to a man walking along and throwing seed out and trusting the universe to provide a good crop.
Farmers just want tractors so they can waste fuel engaging in the mindless pursuit of tractor pulling...now that their jobs are so easy they get bored and follow such mindless pursuits.
Alex
Many of these fancy tractors are pretty much autonomous already. I recall watching a Utube video of a young lady in the US midwest, describing how her tractor knows the size of the field, GPS way points, turn locations, row alignment, etc. And it was air conditioned and had an InterNet connection. Her task was pretty much just listening to music and waiting for something to go wrong.
Whilst a lot are autonomous, many still are not, but for most reasonably modern gear, upgrade kits are available. yes, they rely heavily on GPS to work out where they are, and the early ones didn't have forward or rear radar, so would run over someone if they were not awake.
Most people have no idea just what it takes to grow food, and with the drive on for meatless products, the situation can only get harder. They think that they can just throw some seed out, flick dirt over it with their boot, and a few days later up comes food. Are they in for a shock WTSHTF !
From personal experience, John Deere charges $500/hr for a telephone chat re any issues, then $1,000/hr on site. Large scale food growing isn't cheap, but in a world of 7 billion, someone has to do it !
Wish it was that easy, feet up, listening to music, but dragging a planter which is 30 meters wide behind the tractor takes a lot of concentration, just looking at all those seed drills and plough plates.
The voltage drop over a long enough cable would be really bad, even if done at 3,300 volts or more, not to mention the extra drag on the machinery pulling 10 km cable behind, and the tangling potential. The drive is for automation on these large scale farms, so lot of individual small machines, with their associated maintenance wouldn't be cost effective.
The tow locomotives on the Panama Canal only operate in one dimension, in a basically straight line, and most now use a series of bus-bars to carry the power, not cables.
The one application for an electric tractor could be the small scale farm, in the 40 hp range, say an orchadist. 25 kw is doable, especially as its not needed continuously usually.
Meanwhile, a gasifier allows me to run a generator from wood, which is a 100% renewable resource, so I'm OK mate.
