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  #61  
Old 06-11-2017, 07:15 PM
AndrewJ
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I always find it hard to get to the truth in a lot of this.
One item i found today was
http://www.minerals.org.au/file_uplo...s_3March17.pdf
Which would indicate subsidies for coal "associated with local electricity generation" is rather small. Other documents indicate subsidies associated with exporting are much larger ( a bit like how we gave away our LNG for a pittance )
It will be interesting to see tonights 4 corners where Glencore, a major coal exporter is forensically investigated.
There may be massive back door subsidies ( ie the govt turns a blind eye to whats going on ) but thats very hard to prove.
Either way, when i bought my first PC ( a 4MHz 286 with floating point chip and a 40MB hard drive ) it cost a relative fortune.
Flat screen TVs cost a fortune when first introduced, as did mobile phones. ( I actually had the pleasure of carrying the separate battery unit for a manager with a very early "mobile phone" )
Look at the cost of these items now??
Renewables may cost more up front now, but the costs will come down over time, and at that point, it will be interesting to watch the unholy scramble of the "big businesses" to try and prevent people getting cheap access to it.

Andrew
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  #62  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan_L View Post

But I am watching SA solar/battery solution with interest.
Hi Alan.

the SA solution is a lot more than solar and battery, though you would never know it from the misinformation that is floating around.

As far as I can tell, we need up to about 3.3GW to meet peak demand

current local capability is based on:
Gas 2,668MW generating 50.5% of total power
Wind 1,698MW generating 39.2% of total power
Coal 0
Diesel + SNSG* 289MW generating 1.1% of total power
Rooftop PV** 781MW generating 9.2% of total power


about to come on line:
-100MW/129MWh battery (short term stability, plus cutting the top off extreme high prices)
~200+MW new fast reaction SA Govt owned backup - Diesel/Natural gas
~300MW wind

in the pipeline:
- lots of wind (many projects pending - waiting on policy?)
- lots of solar PV (hundreds of MW announced for the next year or two)
- 150MW solar thermal
- at least two more big batteries
- medium sized pumped hydro
~250MW reciprocating engines to replace part of the aged gas thermal capability

interconnectors:
~870MW with NSW and Vic (these operate both ways)

retired:
we used to have about 750MW of brown coal thermal capacity, but that was closed by the owners (Alinta) last year.("The reality is, the technology we are using here is old, the cost structures are high and there's no longer a place for us in the market," Mr Dimery said.)

Most of the time, it appears that SA has sufficient local capacity to meet demand with adequate security and an ability to export wind power interstate. eg, on this last weekend, wind comfortably provided the bulk of our power. In heavy demand conditions, we can be at risk of load shedding if wind and solar are not working at all and the interconnectors are down (or there is no power available on the other side). With the new generators and the battery, we should be better placed this summer, but the closure of Hazelwood in Victoria has possibly put a bit of a dent in the availability of power over the interconnect.

Our biggest problem is that we are reliant on very expensive gas as a backup through the transition period - successive governments (state and federal) have dropped the ball on ensuring that enough affordable gas is available in Aus, even though we have plenty in the state. As a result of the high price of gas, we have expensive power, even though wind power is very low cost. The other killer is that the market rules allow prices to reach over $10,000/MWh, so in extreme conditions (eg a major plant failure) a few hours of emergency power can add the equivalent of hundreds of hours of normally priced power - not saying it happens, but the power companies have a huge incentive to do an ENRON.

Disclaimer - Have done the best I could, but all of the above is from an armchair expert EDIT - partially corrected on the basis of Gary's later post.
cheers Ray

Last edited by Shiraz; 07-11-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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  #63  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
I always find it hard to get to the truth in a lot of this.
One item i found today was
http://www.minerals.org.au/file_uplo...s_3March17.pdf
Which would indicate subsidies for coal "associated with local electricity generation" is rather small. Other documents indicate subsidies associated with exporting are much larger ( a bit like how we gave away our LNG for a pittance )
It will be interesting to see tonights 4 corners where Glencore, a major coal exporter is forensically investigated.
There may be massive back door subsidies ( ie the govt turns a blind eye to whats going on ) but thats very hard to prove.
Either way, when i bought my first PC ( a 4MHz 286 with floating point chip and a 40MB hard drive ) it cost a relative fortune.
Flat screen TVs cost a fortune when first introduced, as did mobile phones. ( I actually had the pleasure of carrying the separate battery unit for a manager with a very early "mobile phone" )
Look at the cost of these items now??
Renewables may cost more up front now, but the costs will come down over time, and at that point, it will be interesting to watch the unholy scramble of the "big businesses" to try and prevent people getting cheap access to it.

Andrew
yeah, I read that paper too. Then I read this one http://reneweconomy.com.au/coal-prod...-a-year-77543/

looks like the subsidy to the coal industry is somewhere between nothing and a huge amount, depending on what bits of Government expenditure you count (eg fuel excise exemptions, railways, ports, mining town facilities, site remediation etc).

Last edited by Shiraz; 06-11-2017 at 10:10 PM.
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  #64  
Old 06-11-2017, 09:01 PM
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Hi "visionary"
I hope you are watching 4 Corners on the ABC TV now. ?
Cheers
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  #65  
Old 07-11-2017, 06:20 AM
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It appears that many of these multinationals and rich people behave like criminals when I read the Paradise Papers.
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  #66  
Old 07-11-2017, 08:48 AM
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South Australia's power now cheaper than coal fired states. From the AFR (no paywall):

http://www.afr.com/news/south-austra...0171106-gzfqaf
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  #67  
Old 07-11-2017, 10:42 AM
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Turn over tax.

Pauline had turnover tax in her platform, I believe but have not read her platform back when, and I suspect that was the main reason she was jumped on... not denying she had many flaws to exploit but I bet the folk who involve themselves in tax havens would have been onto their "man" to voice their disgust of her racial views.

It seems to make sence and no doubt would catch all folk tranfering money I guess...but if its only 2 % I personally would not mind ... I would mind if I had a mine with 30 billion turnover and a tax bill of only 50mill...

I wonder what each party says about turn over tax...I bet they already have a list of reasons why it is no good and experts to confirm that view.

alex
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  #68  
Old 07-11-2017, 10:47 AM
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It's at this juncture I will let you "roam free".... grab as much spurious nonsense as you wish and post it.... , the current Alternative engery position is impoverished becasue it continues to use evidence known to be spurious in a vain attempt support a preferred belief. Clearly, much of the pro Alternatives position remains tied up in quasi Gya type belief, or worse, preference deals.
As alternative sources of power proliferate this century, and they will, the oxygen for the extreme Earth Mother inspired religiosity will diminish and reason will prevail, we are a long way from that Dawn of Reason. Alternative sources of Power will become mainstream in this century and as they gain in efficiency they will no longer need to be subsidized, Alternative power will find its "level" in our Grid, Alternative power may even become the majority of power flowing into our Grid! In saying all this History will show the current day and extreme positions held by the pundits of Alternative energies too share the same basis in fact as the arguments used to support the health-giving properties of Radium in the 19C none.
SA's are paying through the nose for unreliable power. Belief has no place in a National Grid, what you "want" has no place in a National Grid.
A National Grid is about providing stable, inexpensive power to the Nation. It's not about MIddle-Class feel-good welfare aka subsidized Solar Panels or the simply ludicrous idea of using Lithium based mass storage rather than lead-acid based mass storage. The SA Gov has in effected asked a Savile Row Tailor to make an ill-fitting suit, SA's have paid a Savile Row price and ending up with a Hyperloop. Lithium-based mass storage highlights the profligate waste of Gov inspired misplaced "faith" or simple dirty preferencing.
There is no place in the National Grid for Gaia purists or preference deals the National Grid is about the efficient the delivery of power.
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  #69  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Turn over tax.

Pauline had turnover tax in her platform, I believe but have not read her platform back when, and I suspect that was the main reason she was jumped on... not denying she had many flaws to exploit but I bet the folk who involve themselves in tax havens would have been onto their "man" to voice their disgust of her racial views.
If the King Maker (Rupert Murdoch) wanted to squash her,
her political career would be over in a week.

Her anti-muslim platform makes her a useful lightening rod to keep around.

Not only is Rupert a hard core zionist and close personal friend of Bibi, et al)... he is on the board of directors of Genie energy who's subsidiary (Afek Oil and Gas) was awarded exclusive exploration rights of the Golan heights .... however, we wont let the fact that it is an egregious violation of international law get in the way there...

but that's probably the subject for a different thread.

Last edited by clive milne; 07-11-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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  #70  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:22 AM
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This thread makes me sick.

We would have NONE of these issues with electricity and its supply and cost if the ideology-driven green cretins in the state parliaments just left the coal-fired stations alone, or invest in modern coal-fired technology. No doubt would've cost less than all the crawl-out-of-the-hole greenie panic projects now going on.

Nuclear is the real way to go, but not with brain damaged derelicts like Daniel Andrews and Jay Weatherill in power unless you want another Chernobyl.

/thread
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  #71  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:39 AM
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The AEMO South Australian Electricity Report for November 2017 :-

http://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files...eport-2017.pdf

This is advisory information provided to the South Australian Minister
for Mineral Resources and Energy about South Australia’s electricity
supply and demand.

AEMO projects that in the 10 year outlook, 2017-2018 will be the highest
risk period for South Australia for a unserved energy event but that "the risk
is being addressed by the South Australian Government’s Energy Plan
developing additional diesel generation and battery storage, and AEMO
pursuing supply and demand response".

They note, "the risks are forecast (subject to significant uncertainty) to
reduce after 2017–18. From 2018–19, the forecast maximum demand is
expected to be moderated by increasing PV uptake and energy efficiency,
and additional large-scale renewable generation is expected to be developed."

The report notes that 30% of dwellings in South Australia now have
rooftop PV systems installed which contribute 9.2% of the South Australian
power generation mix.

The report also notes that AEMO has acted with industry and government to
implement their own previous recommendations following the September
2016 black system event.

Specifically, to minimize the chance of South Australia becoming islanded
from the national grid, like when the interconnector was disrupted during the
storm, and to increase the likelihood, in the event of islanding, that a
stable electrical island in South Australia can be sustained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEMO
A project to increase the capacity of the existing Heywood Interconnector between Victoria and South
Australia, from a nominal 460 MW to 650 MW in both directions, is nearing completion, and its
capability is being progressively increased as testing and commissioning activities continue.
In a post the other day I mentioned a transmission line technology called
HVDC - High Voltage Direct Current :-

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEMO
ElectraNet is also investigating the feasibility of a potential new high-voltage interconnector between
South Australia and the eastern states, to facilitate integration of more renewable generation in the
region and improve system security
There are a small number of HVDC links in Australia already, including the
Murraylink light bipolar interconnector which connects the Riverland
region on South Australia to the Sunraysia region in Victoria. It may
well be the world's longest underground power transmission system. It
allows for electricity to be traded in either direction.

Basslink is a 290km long HVDC submarine cable that connects Victoria
and Tasmania and again allows energy to be traded in either direction.

The Terranora interconnector is a 65km long underground light HVDC link
that allows NSW and Qld to trade power in either direction.
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  #72  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:01 PM
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Another way to reduce some of the peak loads that cause grief will be the insidious rollout of DRED ready appliances, esp AirCon.
ie reduce consumption vs ramp up for very short peaks.

Not sure yet if the legislation has got through yet
( Gary would probably know more on that )
but basically any large "consumer level" energy units would be required to be fitted with DRED ready circuitry.
Currently, its an opt in scheme ( and is how the suppliers can pay you for not using an appliance ), but i assume it will become mandatory and they will override as and when reqd.

Andrew
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  #73  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Another way to reduce some of the peak loads that cause grief will be the insidious rollout of DRED ready appliances, esp AirCon.
ie reduce consumption vs ramp up for very short peaks.

Not sure yet if the legislation has got through yet
( Gary would probably know more on that )
but basically any large "consumer level" energy units would be required to be fitted with DRED ready circuitry.
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the post.

I'm not across the latest but I recollect there was something about it in
the press again recently.

As you are probably aware, the concept of Demand Response
Enabling Devices (DRED) has been around for a while - at least
back to around 2005 - and there is even AS/NZS 4755 which addresses it
at a technical level.

The idea being that if you install a DRED compliant appliance, such
as an air-conditioner, its operational output can be remotely controlled
by your power utility. In return they give you a rebate on the power bill.
I am aware that some of the power utilities are already offering it today.

As was the case in NSW, one of the major reasons
the cost of power had gone so high was because the organizations
responsible for poles and wires were upgrading them ("gold plating")
to withstand worse case peak demands, in particular on hot summer
days when everyone switches their air-conditioning on.

As extreme weather events and annual temperatures increased, the problem
has become worse as even more people install aircon and more people
switch them on.

Which ironically only contributes more to global warming if the energy
source the unit was plugged into was CO2 intensive.

There was the event in NSW in the past 12 months where demand was
forecast to exceed supply and so AEMO requested people limit their power
consumption and they cycled down one of the aluminium smelters.

I recollect there has been some lobbying from some of the power companies
to make AS/NZS 4755 mandatory on some new appliances - particularly
air-conditioning.

It is a concept akin to the energy-star concept for appliances like laser
printers that was mandated in the U.S. at least back to 2001 when
George W Bush signed an executive order. The printer would typically
save power by switching itself into a standby mode when not in use,
drawing, say, less than a watt.

When your building appliances like that (I designed laser printer controllers
in the 80's and 90's), for global markets, the result is that when one
jurisdiction in the world sets a benchmark like that, then the rest of the
world benefits. You don't go designing energy-saving printers just for the
US and less power efficient ones for elsewhere. Economies of scale dictate
you build a single model.

With air-conditioning and AS/NZS 4755 I believe it may offer various
operational modes. On a hot summer day they wouldn't just power it
off so you would be without it, but put it into lower power modes.
Your room temperature would obviously go up but the rationale was
that is a better scenario than everyone creating a blackout and
being without any power or comfort.

I was aware that those power companies lobbying for mandatory DRED
capability were taking a softly-softly approach. They were saying that
they did not want to force their customers to signing up to have their
appliances remotely tuned-down via DRED, only that all new air-conditioners
should come with the capability.

If you know any more, I'd be interested to learn.
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  #74  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
The idea being that if you install a DRED compliant appliance, such as an air-conditioner, its operational output can be remotely controlled by your power utility. In return they give you a rebate on the power bill. I am aware that some of the power utilities are already offering it today.
My concern is that this will dirty up the power even more. Right now the decabit signalling is messing with all the LED dimmers in my house, making them practically useless.

It's also a bad acronym from a marketing point of view
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  #75  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:39 PM
gary
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Quote:
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My concern is that this will dirty up the power even more. Right now the decabit signalling is messing with all the LED dimmers in my house, making them practically useless.

It's also a bad acronym from a marketing point of view
Hi Steffen,

It is a terrible acronym.

I remember in the mid-80's spending a summer with the engineers at
what was then Sydney County Council - now Energy Australia.

There was a hi-fi buff here on the north shore who had put in a complaint
regarding the noise being induced into his speakers whenever the tones
would come on to switch on the Zellweger off-peak meters.

I was surprised by how much trouble the SCC engineers went to at the
time investigating the problem and trying to resolve it.

They put monitors on power poles and what-not.

We've all heard them. I even have a table lamp that when switched
on will resonate at night with the harmonics when the tone bursts come
through.

Interesting about it playing havoc with the LED dimmers.

I wonder though how much they themselves might be injecting back into
the network? Perhaps every time you dim the lights, you have some
neighbour get upset that his Herbert von Karajan conducted 9th
Symphony gets spoilt by noise right in the middle of his favourite
choral piece.
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  #76  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:40 PM
AndrewJ
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Gday Gary
Quote:
I recollect there has been some lobbying from some of the power companies to make AS/NZS 4755 mandatory on some new appliances - particularly air-conditioning.
That was the primary push, and i note a lot of DRED enabled A/C units are now being advertised, but the other one i read about at the time was pool pumps/filters, as there is no "life threatening" problem if they just turn all of them off. Cant see any adds for them being DRED'd yet :-)

Quote:
It is a concept akin to the energy-star concept for appliances
Dunno there :-)
You have a choice to buy a cheap but energy inefficient device or spend a lot more for a good unit, but its your choice.
If DRED is implemented as per what the retailers "really" want, ie they controll it to suit their needs, not yours, you will have no say.

Be fun to see what eventually evolves.

Andrew
Ed Just found this old paper.
I first heard of DRED when they were pushing "Smart Meters" in Vic, but this goes way earlier.
Interestingly, it includes hot water heaters???? Who needs them mid summer :-)
https://link.aemo.com.au/sites/wcl/s...Sep%202009.pdf

Last edited by AndrewJ; 07-11-2017 at 02:01 PM.
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  #77  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionary View Post
...the simply ludicrous idea of using Lithium based mass storage rather than lead-acid based mass storage.
1. Lead-acid batteries waste about 15% of power during charging compared to about 2% of Li-Ion batteries. In the long run they will be more expensive than the Li-Ion batteries.

2. They can't handle the Australian heat. Their life degrades quickly as the temperature goes up. The optimum operating temperature is 25C and roughly the lifetime halves with every 8 degrees temperature increase (source). So if you look at typical Australian summers with over 40C, a typical 10 year life of a lead-acid battery is down to just a few years.

3. Unlike Li-Ions they can't handle deep cycling. There are models that can do that but they cost more of course.

Now the Li-Ion are not the holy grail and have their own disadvantages but I don't believe that there is a great conspiracy against the lead-acid batteries

Lead-acid batteries have their limitations and the long-term economics does not work out for the large-scale power storage applications when compared to the Li-Ion batteries.
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  #78  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrograde View Post
South Australia's power now cheaper than coal fired states. From the AFR (no paywall):

http://www.afr.com/news/south-austra...0171106-gzfqaf
Really interesting article - thanks Pete.

this is also useful reading https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/File...Capability.PDF

Last edited by Shiraz; 07-11-2017 at 09:11 PM.
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  #79  
Old 07-11-2017, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clive milne View Post
If the King Maker (Rupert Murdoch) wanted to squash her,
her political career would be over in a week.

Her anti-muslim platform makes her a useful lightening rod to keep around.

Not only is Rupert a hard core zionist and close personal friend of Bibi, et al)... he is on the board of directors of Genie energy who's subsidiary (Afek Oil and Gas) was awarded exclusive exploration rights of the Golan heights .... however, we wont let the fact that it is an egregious violation of international law get in the way there...

but that's probably the subject for a different thread.
I was talking about her first run.
Certainly if I held the strings I would keep her around to divert public attention when the need arose.

alex
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:06 AM
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The Guardian : even the Australian coal fired power plants are in the Paradise Papers.
$117 million from taxpayers.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...lian-taxpayers
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