Compulsory Military Service.

[75BC (Brendon)]

Threads like this (as well as the starry stuff) are a reason I love being a member of this forum. 99% of people here are intelligent and respectful and is probably why the mods let us bend the rules.

Rarely in my short time here have I seen things go too far.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by 75BC

...........
Rarely in my short time here have I seen things go too far.

That's been true recently but you should (or perhaps shouldn't) have seen the great global warming debates. Idiots, trolls, rants, flames, ad hominem attacks, lots of locked threads and an eventual ban on the subject. Fortunately some of the more hot-headed contributors have retired themselves and I suspect many others have learned to bite their tongue. Things are much better now.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

That's been true recently but you should (or perhaps shouldn't) have seen the great global warming debates. Idiots, trolls, rants, flames, ad hominem attacks, lots of locked threads and an eventual ban on the subject. Fortunately some of the more hot-headed contributors have retired themselves and I suspect many others have learned to bite their tongue. Things are much better now.

It's good to know that things are much better now. I was a member of a forum where climate change was a very hotly debated topic and many members were either suspended for a time, or banned completely (for the record, I was not one of them). The climate change debate seems to bring out the worst in some people. Best left alone, IMO.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Happy birthday for last week John.

You must have done the birthday lottery also I expect.

Its funny I did not link conscription as we experienced it with the sort of thing I was trying to come up with...

And what got me going was a realisation how some in our society really dont have much of a chance.

Anyways no doubt my solution was wrong on many levels and like so many things it seemed like a good idea at the time.

And thank you for appolologising but there was no need, for I failed to connect between my idea and the draft way back, but of course I humbly accept your appology.

I dont think kids are worse today I think they have it worse than I did.

I have been very lucky and I wish the folk society forgets could be treated better.

Thanks again.

Alex

Yes mate, I remember than time (the lottery of death, as it was called) very clearly. My father was a committed Labor man and he was adamant that if my number (or any of my brothers' numbers) came up, then I/we was/were going underground. He often said that he wasn't having any of his sons used as cannon fodder by the Yanks, or by the Menzies Government. Who was I to argue?

P.S. Many thanks for the birthday wishes.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

Yes mate, I remember than time (the lottery of death, as it was called) very clearly. My father was a committed Labor man and he was adamant that if my number (or any of my brothers' numbers) came up, then I/we was/were going underground. He often said that he wasn't having any of his sons used as cannon fodder by the Yanks, or by the Menzies Government. Who was I to argue?

P.S. Many thanks for the birthday wishes.

Well you were lucky.
My father and father in law to be were both returned soldiers from WW2, both were liberal voters and thought the Labour party was controlled by the Communist party, and that unions were a communist plot to undermine society.
And I was law clerk in an office where the same beliefs were the norm.
If I was called up all would be proud that I went off to fight the reds and worse still I would have gone happily to fight the threat.
So I have come a long way to become a socialist.
Probably all a result of the cold war and the propaganda we were fed.
And thinking about conscription today I think why what I was suggesting in the op did not register was because I think I simply put those times out of my head.
And sadly we still dance to others music and the propaganda still goes on today...
What I learnt was at certain level of privilege it is impossible for them to see suffering is more likely a product of society rather than lack of enthusiasm or determination to work.

Perhaps you would care to join me in drafting the outlines of my proposed new world order.. It will work if all humans are given a labotomy.
Alex

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

There are a few things we need to understand.

If we are not happy with aspects of our youth today, remember that WE created it. WE created their apparent laziness. Not them, US, by not caring more about the way the education system has been taken and NOT voicing our concerns. By creating children who give up their responsibility for their own children to the system. By allowing the creation of the system we have now. And now we whine about how we see the young folk...

I came from a hell hole of a system that made all these mistakes, and it breaks my heart to see the exact same mistakes being done here, and WE are too arrogant to learn from the mistakes of others because WE see ourselves above everyone else. AND we are repeating the same mistakes, horrible mistakes, from not very long ago because from our apathy we allow polies and the media control us through fear and distraction.

It might surprise you that our youth have more balls than we give them credit for. No doubt that there are those who are lazy. EVERY generation has them. Remember those who were too smart for school? There are also those who see a certain futility in doing anything - why when the system is stacked against them. AND there are those who are now totally engrossed in their "Facebook" accounts - but don't forget, WE created this system. Not them. WE did.

And we are in one hell of a crap-hole mess to pull ourselves out from.

But there are those who do have balls, energy and courage, but they lack the leadership to encourage and guide them. To call them "idealists" shows we've been seduced by the system we've created. Who's got the balls among us to lead them?

Military service is not the answer. I do not offer a solution. I only seek to point out what we have done wrong, to see the flower that is before us and to not repeat the same mistakes.

To single out the youth is our mistake. Again. We created them. So why are we whinging?

So, who's got the balls to step up?

[xelasnave]

Hi Alex,
I will step up.
A very nice post indeed and I am inclined to embrace generalisation and agree.

However my op was not about addressing a non existent perception, on my part, that our youth has some sort of problem, and given my use of the words "compulsory" and "military" folk reasonably could miss my underlying concern with the system we call capitalism or the market economy.
I really don't like to blame anyone however...all do their best.

Let me outline my concerns.

A market economy or capitalism, again a generalisation which may seem to exclude exceptions but a fundamentally reasonable proposition, must have a percentage of the work force unemployed to manage or control inflation.

I would like to think this is not so, certainly I doubt any politician or banker would come out and say "yes that is the way it works" and yet one can't avoid the relationship between interest rate movements, inflation and the percentage of unemployment in the work force.

So what I believe, which is all I can offer without reference to sources of authority on economic matters, is the system needs in fact depends upon a section of society or the work force who are going to have little more to hope for than casual work at best but generally social security to fund their existence..A poverty class that "the American Dream" sees some escape but for the majority the dream will always be nothing more than a dream.

Fortunately the mingling of socialist ideas of unrealistic notions of wealth re distribution and the harse reality of a market economy sees this poverty class receiving money from the government rather than from secure employment, and that is good...I would say they are paid not to expect work as the norm.

And it is wonderful our system has arrived at a compromise between the harshness of the extremes of socialism and capitalism...

So as wonderful as the system is now I see the effect of folk living in this area of never reaching the dream and how this seems to lead to a hopelessness that many see as simply a problem of the youth today...Its not the youth really in my view it is a slight imperfection in what really is a great system...So it is the problem of how the system gives folk money and little else...

Compulsory military service may fix it by giving direction but even with direction the system can't allow the poverty class to be gone...so I see no way out of the problem I probably alone perceive...

Sorry to ramble but my thoughts are less than clear other to conceded that to suggest "compulsory military service" is not the answer.

In fact I am not even sure how the original question could be framed...

Alex

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

There are a few things we need to understand.

If we are not happy with aspects of our youth today, remember that WE created it. WE created their apparent laziness. Not them, US, by not caring more about the way the education system has been taken and NOT voicing our concerns. By creating children who give up their responsibility for their own children to the system. By allowing the creation of the system we have now. And now we whine about how we see the young folk...

I came from a hell hole of a system that made all these mistakes, and it breaks my heart to see the exact same mistakes being done here, and WE are too arrogant to learn from the mistakes of others because WE see ourselves above everyone else. AND we are repeating the same mistakes, horrible mistakes, from not very long ago because from our apathy we allow polies and the media control us through fear and distraction.

It might surprise you that our youth have more balls than we give them credit for. No doubt that there are those who are lazy. EVERY generation has them. Remember those who were too smart for school? There are also those who see a certain futility in doing anything - why when the system is stacked against them. AND there are those who are now totally engrossed in their "Facebook" accounts - but don't forget, WE created this system. Not them. WE did.

And we are in one hell of a crap-hole mess to pull ourselves out from.

But there are those who do have balls, energy and courage, but they lack the leadership to encourage and guide them. To call them "idealists" shows we've been seduced by the system we've created. Who's got the balls among us to lead them?

Military service is not the answer. I do not offer a solution. I only seek to point out what we have done wrong, to see the flower that is before us and to not repeat the same mistakes.

To single out the youth is our mistake. Again. We created them. So why are we whinging?

So, who's got the balls to step up?

Great post, Alexander. Yes, where do we start? During my schooldays (late 1950s early 1960s), we had too much discipline and a truly barbarous punishment regimen, which included horrendous canings that no child should be subjected to. The more gentle and sensitive among us were really quite traumatized by these exhibitions of what was frequently just a power trip by teachers (who BTW were often returned servicemen) relieving their frustrations and post war angst on their (often) terrified pupils.

But as time went on, the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction and reasonable discipline was seen as some sort of right wing plot, by the increasingly left wing teachers' unions, goaded on by new guard social revolutionaries, employed in the various State education departments' curriculum development sections.

This was all intentional social engineering, designed to replace the received wisdom of our liberal western social democratic traditions with.....God knows what!!!

[Orionskies (Julian)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

There are a few things we need to understand.

If we are not happy with aspects of our youth today, remember that WE created it. WE created their apparent laziness. Not them, US, by not caring more about the way the education system has been taken and NOT voicing our concerns. By creating children who give up their responsibility for their own children to the system. By allowing the creation of the system we have now. And now we whine about how we see the young folk...

I came from a hell hole of a system that made all these mistakes, and it breaks my heart to see the exact same mistakes being done here, and WE are too arrogant to learn from the mistakes of others because WE see ourselves above everyone else. AND we are repeating the same mistakes, horrible mistakes, from not very long ago because from our apathy we allow polies and the media control us through fear and distraction.

It might surprise you that our youth have more balls than we give them credit for. No doubt that there are those who are lazy. EVERY generation has them. Remember those who were too smart for school? There are also those who see a certain futility in doing anything - why when the system is stacked against them. AND there are those who are now totally engrossed in their "Facebook" accounts - but don't forget, WE created this system. Not them. WE did.

And we are in one hell of a crap-hole mess to pull ourselves out from.

But there are those who do have balls, energy and courage, but they lack the leadership to encourage and guide them. To call them "idealists" shows we've been seduced by the system we've created. Who's got the balls among us to lead them?

Military service is not the answer. I do not offer a solution. I only seek to point out what we have done wrong, to see the flower that is before us and to not repeat the same mistakes.

To single out the youth is our mistake. Again. We created them. So why are we whinging?

So, who's got the balls to step up?

STERILIZATION!

[clive milne]

Alex, I think the best I can say about compulsory military service is that it might teach useful skills that our current education system doesn't.

But that would be equivalent to suggesting that chlamydia is to be preferred over cancer.

Why not teach our youth how to live within their means, how to grow their own food, how to build their own home, how to preserve their own health, how to interact socially, how to think critically and how to identify the intellectual bankruptcy woven through the fabric of modern, western, consumer capitalism? But that would be unprofitable for the share holders, so not likely to happen any day soon.

[xelasnave]

Hi Clive
I tried to explain in variouso posts particularly the last that my ill concieved solution was really about addressing an unpleasant aspect of the market economy more than me thinking there is a problem with our youth, they are victims of the problem that I would call the sacrificial employement aspect of a market economy.
However I do conceed my initial idea for many reasons would appear an unsatisfactory solution.
Alex

[lazjen (Chris)]

I'm against conscription. I did do some army reserve training during Uni, and I think it was an interesting experience - certainly enough to know I did not want to do anything else with it.

I wish we had something military-like, but was more SES (state emergency service) based that could be used for a youth service. Make it for search and rescue, disaster assistance and perhaps other community services. Do the training (physical, skills, etc), do the team work, leadership, etc that's useful for youth to get the experience/exposure.

Perhaps instead of being compulsory, other incentives can be used (not necessarily all):

* Pay more than unemployment benefits.
* Make it part-time like the army reserve, so students could use it.
* Maybe some discount on study costs (Uni/Tafe/etc)?

So while this service is providing useful skills, etc to our youth, it's also something useful for the community. Extra skilled personnel for disaster recovery, etc.

Only rough thoughts, but something different to the usual "military conscription" idea that keeps popping up.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by lazjen

I wish we had something military-like, but was more SES (state emergency service) based that could be used for a youth service. Make it for search and rescue, disaster assistance and perhaps other community services. Do the training (physical, skills, etc), do the team work, leadership, etc that's useful for youth to get the experience/exposure.

I'd be in favour of this if it could be made to work. The only (fairly substantial) issue I see with it is what do you do with those who don't want to be there and will not do what they are told to? This is easily dealt with in the military, but in civilian life, even the police don't really enforce community service sentences. Something completely civilian would end up failing. We are just too self centred these days.

[clive milne]

I think that we are more or less in agreement Alex.. well articulated, by the way.

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by Orionskies

Compulsory Military service is a terrible idea Full stop. ............... why should the tax payer pick up the bill for poor and lazy parenting . cheers Julian.

We already do! they need a way to get something back .

Military Service is a great idea, those that are scared of it are probably the same ones that don't like "work for the dole" and having to actually apply for jobs when on welfare, helping out within the community, giving instead of taking etc etc etc...

[astroron (Ron)]

[QUOTE=torana68;1331635]We already do! they need a way to get something back .

Military Service is a great idea, those that are scared of it are probably the same ones that don't like "work for the dole" and having to actually apply for jobs when on welfare, helping out within the community, giving instead of taking etc etc etc...[/QU



Probably haven't done a day in the military.

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by astroron

:.................
Probably haven't done a day in the military.

31 years in uniform here , you can thank me later, silly comment (Im being nice here its not what Im thinking)

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by torana68

We already do! they need a way to get something back .

Military Service is a great idea, those that are scared of it are probably the same ones that don't like "work for the dole" and having to actually apply for jobs when on welfare, helping out within the community, giving instead of taking etc etc etc...

+1 It would give a lot of kids a goal, a sense of belonging and team work. All skills to take back and apply to civilian life.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Probably haven't done a day in the military.

Roger is quite correct. As someone who has done more than 'a day' in the military, the types Roger described generally don't make it through the recruit camp.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

This thread is really quite amusing, in fact quite laughable......old men pontificating about what they think others need because apparently they are perfect specimens of Australians , like they are the sages of morality, societies needs and all knowledge and know what everyone else "needs" to fit into this deluded view yaaaawn.....

Thank evolution that you have absolutely zero influence