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  #61  
Old 29-07-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
A big part of my concern is that after being selected, they are still open to outside influence and corruption, just like now.
Back in the original proposal, I addressed major sources of external influence. This proposal is an order of magnitude more resistant to corrupting influences than our current system that actually seeks out and welcomes influence.

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You only need to see whats going on in the courts to see how sophisticated and entrenched the means are to corrupt people.
I don't claim that anything is perfect, but that's a pretty dubious claim. Jury tampering and perverting the course of justice are highly illegal and would likely result in prison for the offenders.

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As i said earlier, in a wired world, it will soon be simple to give the real vote to the people and bypass all the other stuff.
You've said that several times now - once was enough! If you want to continue to talk about plebiscites, please start another thread.
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  #62  
Old 29-07-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
To Astro Bot
Sounds good so far.
I am curious how the convention would run, do you have in mind a format.
Would jurors address the others with their vission for example.
I can see a big brother..the TV show..or survivor..another TV show where someone prevails through a combination of personality and strategy...
But rather than second guess what are your views on how the many select the few
I envision a handful of things - but many details remain to be thrashed out.

I expect each gathering would be convened and adminstered by the AEC or a like body. There would be ice-breakers, presentations, group discussions, a constitutional familiarisation session, reading periods, more discussions, workshops on current issues ... have you ever been to a job interview that was conducted as a workshop? The idea is simple (to answer the question, "who among us is best to represent this electorate"). The implementation, however, is somewhat harder. Then again, in our current system, party branch meetings are no cup of tea. We would collectively get out of this process what we invest in it, IMHO.
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  #63  
Old 29-07-2014, 10:25 PM
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Jury tampering and perverting the course of justice are highly illegal and would likely result in prison for the offenders.
I wasnt talking about the juries in the courts ,
i was talking about the revelations re what sits behind the corrupted pollies in the courts.
Your proposal does nothing to address the fact that ( no matter how elected ), if a small number of people have a lot of power, they are open to corruption.

Pls enlighten me how your proposal prevents that??????

Andrew
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  #64  
Old 29-07-2014, 10:36 PM
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marc4darkskies (Marcus)
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Here are my thought bubbles.

I find it intriguing that you'd expend so much intellectual effort because you hate politicians! I for one have no problem with our political system and method of selection - even when my team doesn't win office! On the whole, when the majority of the populace lose confidence in a government or a leader, the leader will be replaced (by their own party), the senate can block supply or you only have three years to wait to vote them out. Kicking out under performers is easy in Australia (as opposed to say the US) and to me this is an overarching consideration, regardless of how the representatives are chosen. Fixed term parliaments would work against such mechanisms.

Your proposal is rife with committees, conventions, elections, discussion and survivor style eliminations, but you expect this to happen politely without lobbying, ideology or politics (= a particular set of political beliefs or principles) and spread over a year or more? Granted, it would make good reality TV ... who will get eliminated THIS week?? But the thought of having such an extended election cycle makes me want to vomit. That this would somehow be a cleaner and less corruptable process is fantasy IMO.

You stress the use of a Jury process. However, a jury only works in a court of law because of strictly defined parameters of decision making and interpretation and adjudication of evidence. No such parameters would exist for the 25 or 100 strong juries you propose (one for each electorate! ). It would be a free for all. Cliques would invariably develop based on common interests, agendas, politics (= a particular set of political beliefs or principles), ideology and driven by type A personalities. Sound familiar? This will happen no matter how random your selection of the original jurors. It’s human nature for Pete's sake!

As far as I can tell, your system will have zero impact on the quality of candidates. In fact, I'd actually expect a more amateurish field of candidates who are not bound together by a common / uniting platform (ie views, beliefs, goals, strategies, plans, policies) and with little or no governance experience (since you don't want professional politicians or parties). Consequently, you'll end up with a disparate bunch of people in parliament with little experience, negotiation skills and all with different fixed, dogmatic and unyielding views - a recipe for complete stalemate and disarray in government!

Finally, I think your glass is half empty. Look where you live! Australia is ranked by the OECD as the No. 1 country in the world to be! Each of the countries in the OECD are ranked according to the ‘better life index’. If a country's well being is high (based on these factors http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=BLI#) then it's governance, on the whole, must also be healthy - by definition! Australia is No. 1!!! Why mess with that? Because you hate a single profession?
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  #65  
Old 29-07-2014, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
Pls enlighten me how your proposal prevents that??????
Quod Vide:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro_Bot
Back in the original proposal, I addressed major sources of external influence. This proposal is an order of magnitude more resistant to corrupting influences than our current system that actually seeks out and welcomes influence.
I generally like a discussion, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself (I think it's 6 or 7 times now), especially when it was adequately explained in the orginal proposal, so I won't respond to any more of your posts.
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  #66  
Old 29-07-2014, 10:56 PM
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hey this is getting funny Astro_bot you seem to think that your idea is the greatest in history and any criticism is simply down us dummies not understanding. The last election has shown that many people can run for government. the fact that most Australians choose to vote for one of the major parties is up to them. Your system would ensure we have a whole Parliament of Ricky's.
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  #67  
Old 30-07-2014, 06:24 AM
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To Astro Bot
You are in effect trying to ..sell.. your idea.
A gentle approach can be effective.
Above all other things I am a professional salesman..even in law it was really selling..to get work to do work..so much was selling.
I sold houses and had a real estate office of which I was very proud.
Some people would walk thru a house and buy it on the spot.
Others would require many inspections before they made up their mind to purchase.
It would have killed many sales if I said....
Look you have seen the house four times already, you have a copy of the contract, you have those photos I gave you can't you make up your mind cause I am not wasting my time showing you the house again...
Showing a house many times did not mean I would sell it but I was always happy when folk wanted more inspections because at least I knew they were somewhat interested.
I can understand having spent so much time constructing an excellent first post that you feel the job is over but maybe it is not.
Your proposal is a big step and although as you say needs little in the way of constitutional change it is still radical.
I think it has merit but many questions are in my mind which you may have addressed in your original post such that my question may to you be going over old ground but what can be done if I miss a point such that I need to raise a question.
I respectfully suggest you consider the point I seek to make for I make it solely to help your cause.
Good luck and best wishes alex
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  #68  
Old 30-07-2014, 09:13 AM
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I generally like a discussion, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself
So answer the question i asked, rather than regurgitate your earlier statement.
I asked how does your proposal prevent corruption ( etc )
AFTER the chosen few are annointed????

I have no problems that the random selection process may remove cronyism at that end, but i wanted you to address how the pollies stay clean???
If they dont, then its no better than what we already have.
( also i reckon that the mass of "average" people selected by your method will have had very little training in resisting external influences, so making them easy pickings for the people who really "want" the power. )

Andrew
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  #69  
Old 30-07-2014, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro_Bot View Post
I generally like a discussion, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself (I think it's 6 or 7 times now), especially when it was adequately explained in the orginal proposal, so I won't respond to any more of your posts.
HUH?! You propose countless juries of amateurs, expect them to discuss, haggle & negotiate to whittle themselves down to the magic 5 over a whole year and then you pike out of the discussion after only 2 days? You've basically demonstrated the fallacy of your own proposal!
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