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  #61  
Old 19-05-2014, 07:08 PM
Hans Tucker (Hans)
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Originally Posted by el_draco View Post
It horrifies me that anyone would contemplate doing such a thing for ANY reason. Its a disgraceful waste of resources and just demonstrates how these mongrels live in a fantasy land of oppulence. They eat cake whilst an ever increasing number of people in their own countries go without the basics of life. Make me want to hurl.
If you are that passionate regarding the waste of $50K maybe you should see the waste going on in Brazil, host for the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Olympics.
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  #62  
Old 19-05-2014, 09:25 PM
el_draco (Rom)
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Money & Sport!!

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If you are that passionate regarding the waste of $50K maybe you should see the waste going on in Brazil, host for the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Olympics.
Another level of obscenity altogether.... If I had my way, there wouldn't be a cent of public money wasted on sport full stop. Bring in the bucks and you kiss sportsmanship goodbye. The amount of $ pissed down the drain on everything from Olympics to AFL each year is insane and, according to recent reports, Asian crime syndicates are going to target sport which will make it even worse.

Money completely wrecked Aussie Football and Cricket a generation ago IMHO. Anyone remember footy in the 60's? You had to have a "real" job during the week....
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  #63  
Old 20-05-2014, 02:34 PM
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David - I shake my head. The people you think are providing the best leadership are criminals. They intentionally falsify loan documents, they break existing laws, and they infiltrate politics in order to weaken banking regulations, all of this in order to maximize profits.

After the Savings & Loans crisis of the 80's and 90's there were more than 1000 criminal convictions for major fraud. The latest fiasco is much worse yet barely anyone has been jailed - there's a lot wrong with the system.
They are the best and brightest in the sense that they have risen to the top of a very competitive heap. They have what it takes to succeed under capitalism. If they are also criminals then, your Honour, I rest my case.

It's interesting that, as far as I can see, at the time of the English revolution (which included the English Civil War), the monarchists were a bunch of lazy ignorant so and so's and the incipient capitalists ("the burghers, good and true" to quote Richard Palmer-James) were upright, honest, hard-working citizens. Things have changed.
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  #64  
Old 20-05-2014, 03:17 PM
casstony
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I did somewhat mistake your meaning in the previous post David, but corrupt people can rise to the top in any system of government. The fact that they have done so under our current system doesn't condemn capitalism compared to other governing systems, though I'm happy to try an improved system whatever that may be.

What's needed is a better feedback control method for the Wall Street bankers and their political associates. I'm thinking of an electronic collar that we can beep when they start going astray or give them a zap for greater reinforcement.

Last edited by casstony; 20-05-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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  #65  
Old 20-05-2014, 04:23 PM
AndrewJ
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Gday Tony
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What's needed is a better feedback control method for the Wall Street bankers and their political associates.
Its called jail, but it just isnt used enough.
Perhaps it costs too much in the capitalist legal system to fight off their lawyers long enough to get a conviction that stands.
Loopholes were invented for a reason

Andrew
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  #66  
Old 20-05-2014, 07:05 PM
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Ah mate, I needed that laugh so bad.... best thing that's happened to me today. Also explains why Aussies love Kiwis so much..... especially Richard Hadlee !!
But with him out of the picture, who will save NZ when its colossal residential property bubble inevitably bursts? That is the question.
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  #67  
Old 20-05-2014, 07:10 PM
el_draco (Rom)
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But with him out of the picture, who will save NZ when its colossal residential property bubble inevitably bursts? That is the question.
Us Aussies will come over an buy the joint as payback for all the kiwis on the dole over ere mate... of course Haddels will live 4 eva
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  #68  
Old 20-05-2014, 08:51 PM
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Us Aussies will come over an buy the joint as payback for all the kiwis on the dole over ere mate... of course Haddels will live 4 eva
Well, of course... Assuming your own residential property bubble doesn't implode before ours does...

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  #69  
Old 20-05-2014, 09:20 PM
clive milne
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Out of all the hot air expended so far this comment is closest to the nub of the issue. Once you understand that our economic system is not stable in the long term, everything else is rearranging the deck chairs.
Yep...
Permit me to elaborate for those not seeing it yet if you will. Whilst this is a a bit of a maths lesson and implicitly boring by definition, it may just turn out to be the most important of your life.
To truly understand the situation we are in you need to understand how a system behaves that exhibits growth at a constant percentage ie) the exponential function.
You can read the wiki article on the exponential function but good luck parsing it for a clear understanding of the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

Here is (what I hope) to be an easily understandable version: Anything that grows exponentially, be it the mould on your bathroom wall or world energy demand (a function of population growth) will keep doubling in a period of time that is easily estimated by dividing 70 by the %age growth.

If a system grows by 3.5% per year then it will double approximately every 20 years (70/3.5) if the growth rate is 2.8% then it will double approximately every 25 years, and so on.

Now here is the sting in the tail of this tale...(basically why we are screwed) Consider how such a system grows over multiple doubling periods; for arguments sake lets say it's the amount of sugar grains that the argentine ant colony in your basement pilfers from your pantry. The ants breed at a rate that results in their population growing at 2.8% per day. After the first 25 days this ant colony has consumed 1 gram of sugar.
At day 50 they have doubled their consumption so the total of sugar snaffled is 3 grams.
At day 75, their consumption rate has gone up to to 4 grams per period so the total consumed since they first arrived is 7 grams. At day 100 the consumption rate has doubled again to 8 grams for the doubling period...

The thing to notice here is that the consumption of sugar required to sustain the colony over any 25 day period is equal to the amount of everything that they have consumed to date +1.

Ergo, if the world economy is growing at 2.8%pa and let's say that over the entire history of the human race we have consumed 50% of the resources available that underpin this economy, then by definition we have enough resources left to keep the show rolling for another 25 years before the cookie jar is empty.
You can apply the same principle to oil reserves, ocean acidity, arable land, water resources, atmospheric GHG's... what ever, and still come to the same conclusion. Basically we are living in the last decade(s) of human civilisation before the planet's people carrying capacity is exceeded. Even if we devoted the entire planet's resources to terraforming Mars and were successful to the extent that it was the equal of earth in all respects, it would buy us only another 25 years before the wheels fell off.

if you are young and imagine that the support structure you see today is going to exist in 50 years time when you need it, well the answer is no, not even in the most optimistic scenario can it possibly be so because it is mathematically impossible.

Anyway, I favour a tessellated placement of deck chairs.
It is slightly more efficient. (and affords a better view of the band)

c

I'm guessing that there is perhaps no more than 5 people on this forum who will actually attempt to understand the information in this post. (please prove me wrong)

Last edited by clive milne; 20-05-2014 at 09:40 PM.
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  #70  
Old 20-05-2014, 11:10 PM
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PCH (Paul)
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Hi Clive,

Thanks for spelling it out for us thickies - lol. With a little thought I was able to follow your maths. Whilst it does seem like a sound argument, I'm thinking to myself, in all the time that folks have been on earth, what's the probability of it all coming crashing down in my trifling life span?
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  #71  
Old 20-05-2014, 11:47 PM
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Clive, I think most people understand that perpetual growth with finite resources is a problem.

I think the human race will keep going though and advancing technologically, just with a few bumps along the way (war, famine, plague).

Eventually we'll meet all of our energy needs via renewable energy based on solar. Raw materials can be sourced from recycling or off planet (asteroids, moon?)
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  #72  
Old 21-05-2014, 12:00 PM
el_draco (Rom)
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The 5

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Originally Posted by clive milne View Post

I'm guessing that there is perhaps no more than 5 people on this forum who will actually attempt to understand the information in this post. (please prove me wrong)

I'm one of them..... I suspect there are more than 5 but the thing that is most worrying is that the louder you shout... the less people listen. The species is populated by self-absorbed-Lemmings

Even scarier is that the deadline is not a fixed point in time, its coming towards us as we screw the system. Environmental collapse will trigger the human equivalent of a Mortein bomb...
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  #73  
Old 21-05-2014, 02:01 PM
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sn1987a (Barry)
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I like the way 'ol mate here describes it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
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  #74  
Old 21-05-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by casstony View Post
After the Savings & Loans crisis of the 80's and 90's there were more than 1000 criminal convictions for major fraud. The latest fiasco is much worse yet barely anyone has been jailed - there's a lot wrong with the system.
I just watched this on TED and found it quite illuminating. The crooks appear to be running the country, and perhaps the world ...

How to Rob a Bank - from the inside that is
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  #75  
Old 21-05-2014, 07:51 PM
casstony
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Good link - should hopefully convince a few doubters that the big banks and their political associates are actually behind the massive debt issues the world is facing.

Bill Black is one of the good guys; there have been a few people screaming bloody murder and laying out the evidence for all to see for a few years now. The police appear to have gone fishing though.

I started educating myself about markets and macro economics from early 2008 since I would shortly have a retirement sum to care for. I read books and blogs for several hours most days for a couple of years.

The corruption in the US goes all the way to the federal reserve and there were a few people warning about what was about to happen in 2008 - fortunately I listened to them. I recall one notable TV personality who didn't see it coming was Alan Kohler, though he was in good company since most of the economic commentators on TV are wildly optimistic.

Nothing has improved, the US and Europe are in deep financial trouble, Japan is a complete basket case and China has it's own social and economic problems. If any one of those major economies collapses we all collapse with it. Historically the solution is a long bleak period of depression and war. But it was a beautiful sunny day here today
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  #76  
Old 22-05-2014, 02:18 PM
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Nothing has improved, the US and Europe are in deep financial trouble, Japan is a complete basket case...
And yet it's a funny thing: I go to the USA and Japan and both places seem filthy rich, especially Japan. That place is like the Jetsons, with iPads.

People in NZ and Australia talk about the foreign economic crises while ignoring our own rapidly-faltering economies. (NZ in particular is eating itself, and has a shocking residential property bubble the likes of which the world has seldom seen.)

But when our own economies finally "correct" -- and they absolutely will -- we'll all be talking about how good they have it overseas and dusting off the passports.
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  #77  
Old 22-05-2014, 09:46 PM
Glenhuon (Bill)
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A very interesting and informative post, enjoyed reading all the opinions, and the way it was conducted. IMHO we are "Going to hell in a handbasket" but most of us seem to be enjoying the trip, sad to say.
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  #78  
Old 23-05-2014, 04:00 AM
Renato1 (Renato)
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Good link - should hopefully convince a few doubters that the big banks and their political associates are actually behind the massive debt issues the world is facing.
I saw on Bloomberg the other day that combined world government debt just went over US$100 Trillion.

John Maynard Keynes said governments should spend big in the bad times to keep the economy ticking and people employed. And that they should save money in the good times to get a reserve up for the bad times.

The problem isn't the banks, but the governments who seemed to keep spending in the bad times, and then went on spending even more in the good times. And with most of that spending going on consumption rather than on investing in the future. I hate it when conservative commentators keep attacking Keynes. They should be attacking the idiotic governments who perverted Keynes.
Regards,
Renato
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  #79  
Old 23-05-2014, 09:26 AM
casstony
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The problem isn't the banks, but the governments who seemed to keep spending
Wall Street created a mountain of debt via unethical and illegal activities I've outlined in previous posts, then the government and reserve bank borrowed and printed more money to bail out the banks that were deemed too big to fail. A responsible government would have allowed the banks to fail, let their debt default, temporarily nationalized the banks and protected depositors funds with government money. We would have done a few hard years and be on the upswing by now. Instead we're looking down the barrel at depression, social upheaval and war.

The government has essentially saved the banks by transferring their bad debt to the public - privatization of profit and socialization of losses is all part of Wall Street's plan and the same people who run the big banks rotate through jobs in the government. The reserve bank governors, the President's financial team and Wall street all work in concert.

There was great hope that the bankers would be jailed and financial problems solved in Obama's first term; he implied as much in his election campaign and hired Paul Volcker (look him up) as one of his financial advisers. Unfortunately Obama went with the 'too big to fail' team and nothing changed - another useless President.


In Australia government debt is minimal despite the rubbish espoused by Hockey and Abbott. Private debt, in particular housing debt is our problem, and that was created by the banks but facilitated by government via first home buyer grants and low interest rates. The ALP did waste a bunch of money supposedly to avoid the GFC from hitting Australia, but a mild recession would have done us a lot good at that time; the housing bubble would have popped and our kids could look forward to much smaller housing loans and we would have recovered quickly given that the rest of the world were pumping their economies with new money.

Last edited by casstony; 23-05-2014 at 09:52 AM.
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