What happened to manners?

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hi Everyone,
This thread, I believe, will become bigger than Ben Hur. It is attracting more attention in an almost exponential enhancement.

Manners are important. It shows respect. It is something that the younger generation takes time to learn. They do eventually learn. I was one of the young generation once and I simply thought manners were for old fuddy duddies. I changed my ways. I believe this is the norm.
To develope polite ways as you proceed through life.

Through pure chance or whatever, I found that by being kind to neighbours when you arrive at a new residence was a huge advantage.

For example back in the 70's We took up residency in Wulguru (Townsville). I grew lots of vegetables, strawberries, bananas and Pawpaws. I gave all excess produce to my neighbours.

I never had a nasty neighbour. I lived in all kinds of situations and I was warned that so and so is bad. I made myself known. Gave some excess produce and all was harmonious. Sometimes it was a beer or some offer of help. It made things sweet.

I've told you this story to reinforce what jjj posted.
I've simply illustrated how I see life in jjj's words.

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

Kindness, respect and good manners towards others is the social lubricant that enables a civilized society to run smoothly.

With a little effort you can make a friend of any sane person. First you must show that you want to be friends through good manners. It may only be a friendly wave. It does a lot to promote good relations.

Everyone where I currently live waves to each other. That was started by me when I first came to Burpengary 8 years ago. I waved to all the neighbours and it now is almost mandatory. A simple wave became contagious.

Good manners are not limited to opening doors and tipping hats etc. It goes further. It is the essence of harmonious social behaviour.

I may find myself limited in time to wish you all an enjoyable entry to the New Year. However it is forwarded to each and every one of you and that the New Year will be profitable, safe and enjoyable.

Happy New Year to you All. (That includes the Moderators)

Cheers

[Darth Wader (Wade)]

Originally Posted by adman

Opening doors, giving up seats etc etc for women stems from the view that women are the weaker and/or inferior sex - prone to frailty, hysteria etc - it goes all the way back to original sin.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way it has become "good manners" to rub women's noses in this fact at every opportunity. When a male gives up his seat on the bus for someone purely because they are a woman, he might as well say to them "Here, have my seat. You are a woman, and less able to stand on your own two feet than I am." It is no wonder that some women get a little cranky about it.

I have no problem showing acts of kindness, and will willingly give up a seat or open a door for someone less able-bodied than myself. But never simply because of someone's gender.

As for manners in general, just about every generation since time immemorial has predicted the end of society as we know it due to the declining moral standards and manners of its younger members. If nothing changed, we would still be covering the bare legs of pianos in case it excited the men too much to see them.

Human societys are fluid things, ever changing and adapting to the conditions of the times. I am not saying that all change is for the better, however manners are relative, not an absolute. The behaviour that we grew up with would have been viewed with similar dismay by the previous generation, and will be seen as quaint and old fashioned by the next.

People get to an age where they start to fear change, and any departure from what they are used to is bad. The cranky old fart is an archetype for a reason.

Best post in this entire thread.

[rat156]

Originally Posted by Darth Wader

Best post in this entire thread.

I hope you thanked him for it!

Cheers
Stuart

[Kunama]

Originally Posted by adman

Opening doors, giving up seats etc etc for women stems from the view that women are the weaker and/or inferior sex - prone to frailty, hysteria etc - it goes all the way back to original sin.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way it has become "good manners" to rub women's noses in this fact at every opportunity. When a male gives up his seat on the bus for someone purely because they are a woman, he might as well say to them "Here, have my seat. You are a woman, and less able to stand on your own two feet than I am." It is no wonder that some women get a little cranky about it.

..................

Sounds like a cop out to me! The fact that you chose to use the phrase " .... to rub women's noses in this fact ............ " tends to negate the rest of your argument. To me opening a door for someone has naught to do with their gender, its just a courtesy hopefully received in the same vein as it is intended, they don't need to be on crutches for me to show some manners.

With thanks .........

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

If I may?
Please excuse my (general) disagreement.
I find Australia to be one of the 'nicest' of the world's industrialised countries.
Specific instances of ill manners or outright hostility aside, I'm always getting 'please'd, 'thank-you'd and 'exuse-me'd. Even from teenagers!

Compared to America or Europe (has anyone met a polite Parisian?) Australia is positively brimming with decent, well-mannered people.
True, the general level of civility seems to have declined over the years as our lives have become faster and our futures less certain, but I still find that people respond well to good manners and RAOKs.

[Mariposa (Amalia)]

As a woman, I appreciate courtesy, but sometimes it can be also tiring, or downright scary! don't blame the women when they react negatively to your acts of courtesy, we live in a society were unfortunately, people don't trust each other, and for good reason. There are men and there are men. There are the naturally courteos, and there are the ones who just look for opportunities to take advantage.

When it comes to courtesy, I believe that it's not only for men, I'm always giving my seat to any person who may need it, older people, pregnant women, people with disabilities. Sometimes they react negatively but most of the time you hear a big thank you and a smile. You do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's part of who you are, no because somebody will thank you in return (obviously it feels very good when somebody thank you...that's a bonus!).

[TrevorW]

During one of her daily classes, a teacher trying to teach good manners, asked her students the following question:
"Michael, if you were on a date, having dinner with a nice young lady, how would you tell her that you have to go to the bathroom?"
Michael said, "Just a minute, I have to go pee."
The teacher responded by saying, "That would be rude and impolite.
"What about you Peter, how would you say it?" Peter said, "I'm sorry, but I really need to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back."
"That's better, but it's still not very nice to say the word bathroom at the dinner table."
And you, little Johnny, can you use your brain for once and show us your good manners?"
I would say, "Darling, may I please be excused for a moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend of mine, whom I hope you'll get introduced to right after the dinner."
The teacher fainted....

[marki]

Originally Posted by adman

Opening doors, giving up seats etc etc for women stems from the view that women are the weaker and/or inferior sex - prone to frailty, hysteria etc - it goes all the way back to original sin.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way it has become "good manners" to rub women's noses in this fact at every opportunity. When a male gives up his seat on the bus for someone purely because they are a woman, he might as well say to them "Here, have my seat. You are a woman, and less able to stand on your own two feet than I am." It is no wonder that some women get a little cranky about it.

When I was at Uni I took a female friend to the movies. We had a great time until reaching the car when it was time to go home. I went to open the passengers door and she launched in to a tirade similar to the tripe written above. I stood quietly letting her go through a very loud well practiced routine (embarrassing) and when she finally finished I explained that the door handle on my little 72 Honda civic was broken and the only way to get in the car was through the passengers side. I got into the car slamming and locking the door, slid over to the drivers side and drove off leaving her in the carpark to find her own way home. Strangely this peed her off even more and I just don't understand why, surely here was a opportunity to show her female superiority, still brings a smile to my face every time I think about it . For me opening doors or giving up a seat is second nature, it's something I have always done and will continue to do regardless of the misguided squawking of unappreciative people. The thought of displaying my male superiority over a gender that has been repressed for thousands of years never enters my head, it is just plain and simple good manners.

Mark

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by marki

When I was at Uni I took a female friend to the movies. We had a great time until reaching the car when it was time to go home. I went to open the passengers door and she launched in to a tirade similar to the tripe written above. I stood quietly letting her go through a very loud well practiced routine (embarrassing) and when she finally finished I explained that the door handle on my little 72 Honda civic was broken and the only way to get in the car was through the passengers side. I got into the car slamming and locking the door, slid over to the drivers side and drove off leaving her in the carpark to find her own way home. Strangely this peed her off even more and I just don't understand why, surely here was a opportunity to show her female superiority, still brings a smile to my face every time I think about it . For me opening doors or giving up a seat is second nature, it's something I have always done and will continue to do regardless of the misguided squawking of unappreciative people. The thought of displaying my male superiority over a gender that has been repressed for thousands of years never enters my head, it is just plain and simple good manners.

Mark

Great Post Mark,, and your reply to the quote above from post #56, I am in the same boat as you, I will continue to open doors for women and also men if I am first to come upon the door of say a club or pub ect.
Thanks for your input
Cheers

[LewisM]

Agreed Ron - I don't care which sex, creed, political affiliation or denomination the person is - if I am the first at a door, I will open it for all and sundry (to a point...when you pass off your obligation to the next similarly minded person).

I also agree with the cop out statements. The "I won't bother because of a couple previous experiences" is just a psychological coping mechanism for what is basically rejection. But thanks for saying it anyways

Rudeness is also a function of society. Traditionally stereotypical "rude" nationalities -French, Spanish, Koreans - have a cultural ethos and ingrained attitude towards others. So be it, in THEIR countries, but I am not going to excuse them outside their country! As the old expression, When in Rome...

[Kunama]

Its often said that the French are not friendly and yes I met many such whilst there but in general I had little trouble there.
Last time I was in Europe I found the least friendly folk were in fact in London.
The friendliest were in Wales and most polite in Monaco including one chap who I chatted to at the harbour just before he stepped onto his 200 Million dollar yacht.

[PCH (Paul)]

Originally Posted by Kunama

Its often said that the French are not friendly and yes I met many such whilst there but in general I had little trouble there.
Last time I was in Europe I found the least friendly folk were in fact in London.
The friendliest were in Wales and most polite in Monaco including one chap who I chatted to at the harbour just before he stepped onto his 200 Million dollar yacht.

Hey Matt, - people reading may assume you mean the good old stereo-typical London of yesteryear.

I just watched a recently filmed documentary set in London, And until I saw Big Ben, I would have bet money it was set in Lagos or Dubai or somewhere - if you get my drift. So the average level of 'manners' may well have drifted somewhat since I was last there some time ago.

Just an observation

[Kunama]

We had the misfortune of having to get the train from Heathrow into the city with luggage a few of years ago, not a pleasant experience with the locals aboard the train. The next time we hired a limo. It was mostly the people on the streets, crowding footpaths having left all their manners at home.

Ended up we dumped our luggage in the hotel and jumped on the Eurostar to Paris, Nice and Monaco instead. Much nicer.

[CJ (Chris)]

[QUOTE=Kunama;930084]We had the misfortune of having to get the train from Heathrow into the city with luggage a few of years ago, not a pleasant experience with the locals aboard the train.QUOTE]

In London, one of the most multicultural cities on the planet, "local" is a very broad term.

There are good and bad people in all facets of humanity. People tend to remember the unpleasant incidents.

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

I would say, "Darling, may I please be excused for a moment? I have to shake hands with a very dear friend of mine, whom I hope you'll get introduced to right after the dinner."
The teacher fainted....

I probably would have said .... I need to go to the ' Little Boy's Room '

Flash ..!!

[Hagar (Doug)]

I fail to see how so much tripe can be written about common courtesy.

If a woman doesn't want a seat then all that is required is a polite thank you but I anm happy standing up. Not some rant from an insecure woman trying to act tough.

I have been married for 36 years and my wife still appreciates this courtesy and still says thank you for such things as opening the door.

[TrevorW]

Hi Dougie, long time no hear, nice of you to pop in.

I stand for the elderly and pregnant women only nowadays, as I'm heading towards that seniors mark myself. I used to stand for women all the time in my younger days but as no one seems to GAF these days I gave up on that. I still let women enter or exit a lift before me and often they are taken by surprise by this little gesture.

[Trixie (Carey)]

Originally Posted by Mariposa

As a woman, I appreciate courtesy, but sometimes it can be also tiring, or downright scary! don't blame the women when they react negatively to your acts of courtesy, we live in a society were unfortunately, people don't trust each other, and for good reason.

I agree. When I first started out at work I found it a little intimidating.

One example is the whole getting in and out of the lift. For me and many of my female colleagues, we just wanted to do our job and not be reminded of our gender all of the time. Most of the time it is just being polite and that is fine but you get some who do it in an exaggerated way with sort of an "I dare you to refuse/object/not say thank you" attitude. Now I would never be rude about it but it did irk me to have to go through that charade every single time I got in a lift. Most people will gesture to whoever is closest to get in, no probs with that. Or the person in the lift who holds it for you if they see you coming, male or female.

I found it very intimidating though when a man stands outside the lift waiting for you to enter and you are forced to run down the corridor so you don't annoy the other passengers.

Getting out you go through it again, and because you were first in you end up at the back but some men will still insist on letting you out first! So to make the ordeal easier do you just assume you will go first? Unfortunately I have seen women do this and you hear mutterings of "princess, or a femminazi who wants it both ways". You can't win!

On the lack of manners in general I really notice it if I am out with my young kids. I can understand in a way because you do see a lot of pushy mums with monster truck prams but I suppose it is a bit like cycling. Some are really rude and people become less tolerant so you end up becoming defensive which kind of feeds the cycle.

[TrevorW]

These archaic mannerisms are instilled in the 40-60 age group at a young age by an earlier generation who where raised with Victorian morals.

They are intended as a sign of respect for the role women and the aged play in society and how we are treated and treat others in our day to day lives.

One of my biggest bug bears is the way the younger generation especially in retail in this country are not taught general manners and address their customers as "mate".

I know it's an Ockerism however to me it is not appropriate to address a customer as such.

Likewise no animosity, sexual overtones or otherwise enters my mind when allowing a woman or anyone else to enter or exit first, it 's instilled in me as the respect due to that person and IMO if intimidation is felt it's often due to ones own inability to deal with the situation.

The moral fabric of society breaks down if respect for others is not instilled in us by our parents from a young age which is fundamentally taught by introducing manners and discipline.

The art of please, thank you, can I help you Sir, Madame, excuse me, beg your pardon, sorry, after you, good morning, please take this seat, will live on if we educate our children both at home and in school that if you want respect from others you have to earn it through how you treat others as you walk along the road of life.

Kind regards

[WingnutR32 (Sam)]

I really want to respond to everyone in this entire thread one by one, but I am at work, so shhhh, my boss doesn't know.

I went through a lot of emotions reading through the thread and being apart of the 'young generation', a lot of what I read made me feel like I was watching Today Tonight or A Current Affair.

So rather than just getting into it too deep, I am just going to say that even though I am young, I am far from discourteous. The 'young generation' of today as a whole, ranges from very courteous to completely discourteous, just the same as an entire nation does.

However, for the current young generation, it all stems from parentals not knowing how to control, deal with, bring up their kids. I have been on the bullied side at school for 12 years and left me socially and emotionally crippled by other kids. It didn't take much to see how they interacted with their own parents to see why they are like the way they are.

The other side of the coin here is that parentals are no longer allowed to bring up their own children thanks to all the political involvement nowadays. I fully agree with the label, "Nanny States", which will soon be, "Nanny Australia".

I am always courteous to any member of the public where I can be. If I am coming up to a door, I will always open it for another person be them male or female if they are entering with me.

My fiance was taken back by me opening the car door for her all the time. I never thought anything of it as it was just in my nature to do. She assumed that it would stop after the first few dates, thinking I was trying to make a good impression. I know full well that she is able to open the door on her own and in no way am I trying to say, "you woman, me man, I do this better" like I was a cro-magnon.

I will always say, "Please" and "Thank You", I will always give up my seat for anyone that needs it. If they make a big song and dance about it that very very few of the females (strong natured on equal rights) do, so be it, I am not ashamed to have asked. I will always treat anyone as an equal.

I just hope this thread keeps itself well mannered and courteous as ALL the IIS members I have dealt with are.