Nasa astronauts are crackpots

[blindman]

Originally Posted by joe_smith

Science today is not the science of yesterday its not like the time of Newton, Pastor, Galileo or Darwin. These people were curious about the world we live in, they were lone adventures looking for how they fit in the universe. They were alone against the system they were a 1 man army for the truth. Today's science institution is more like a business institution, and it wants a return on the money invested in the science they fund. This funding and profit motive behind the field of science is open to hidden/personal agendas and corruption and lies. The meaning of this is, to be a scientist in today’s science institution means you play the game by their rules, if you want a slice of the funding pie. You do this whether or not you believe in anything you have to say is true and false, The institution says what’s true and false not the scientists.

Exactly right! And most people do not understand it.

By the way if you want some fun viewing UFOs go to Pindz media.
I am not trying to tell that is true, but there are some clips even made in space and VERY intriging !
Cheers all, Neville

[astroron (Ron)]

Carl, show us real evidence
As a dedicated observer for over twenty five years and having spent great deal of my life outside wether it be in the military or other pursuit's I have Yet to see anything that could not be explaned by rational thought.
As has been noted many times, there has not as far as I know any clear unambiguous photo,image,video or film that is clear,of a UFO that has been proven to be true.
I have yet yet to be convinced of any ET's.
Read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagen for a good explaination of the UFO phenomena.
Cheers

[TrevorW]

The universe is infinite, the mind is vast, never believe in the impossible or the finite,

The truth is out there

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Carl, show us real evidence
As a dedicated observer for over twenty five years and having spent great deal of my life outside wether it be in the military or other pursuit's I have Yet to see anything that could not be explaned by rational thought.
As has been noted many times, there has not as far as I know any clear unambiguous photo,image,video or film that is clear,of a UFO that has been proven to be true.
I have yet yet to be convinced of any ET's.
Read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagen for a good explaination of the UFO phenomena.
Cheers

Not up to me to show you any evidence....there's more than enough to trawl through on the net if you want to look for it. Have you even looked for yourself or read any books on the subject from credible authors??. It would be better if you did read some of the books as there's a lot of garbage on the net. In any case, how are you going to prove the truth of anything with UFO's. Do you honestly think that unless it crashed that you were going to get any, so called, "hard proof". Even then, the military would be all over it like a swarm of bees and no one else would get a look in. Use some common sense!!!. As for any, clear unambiguous pictures, there are quite a few around. A lot more than you might believe. Many of them can be readily had off the net or found in any credible book about the subject.

I've read all of Sagan's books....despite the fact that he was a good scientist, I would take anything he said on subjects such as this with a grain of salt. He is just as much in the dark as anyone else and all the pontification and scientific posturing about their impossibility or unlikelihood is just a symptom of his ignorance. He can only go by what he knows scientifically, and by what he (and others) want to accept as being a part of the scientific paradigm. He also had a reputation and career to protect. No scientist with Carl's reputation or fame would risk going against what he believes in, or what he professes to acknowledge as the scientific "truth". It would be both professional and personal "suicide".

You want the names of a few books, let me know and I can give them to you. Or at least find them on an online bookstore and point you to there.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Peter, I'll get back to your post tomorrow....watching some DVD's

[Exfso (Peter)]

Having been in the Aviation game for 30 yrs, I was in contact with a few pilots, one of whom was a very good friend of mine who had experiences whilst in flight that defied explaination. One British Airways Crew on a flight from Sydney to Nadi reported a very strange object flying in front of them. At the time there were no other official aircraft within 200nm of them. In any case the description they gave me was not that of anything that remotely resembled anything that was supposed to fly at the time. I am talking 1971. The whole cockpit crew saw this object but decided against officially reporting it for fear of ridicule. I also had a very good friend of mine flying a twin engine aircraft from Leigh Creek in SA to Adelaide at night when he was "buzzed" by a silver disc that proceeded to play chicken with him for around 30 mins until he approached the built up areas north of Adelaide, where it disappeared at what my mate called "light speed". This pilot had over 20,000hrs flying time and was obviously extremely competent. This episode literally scared the crap out of him. He was as white as a ghost when he landed in Adelaide. Just a few of the things that I experienced whilst in Flight Service! I know for a fact that some of the Military Air Traffic Controllers in Darwin had similar experiences whilst I was stationed in the NT.
So IMHO, somethings that happen just defy logic, call these things UFO's or whatever, but there are far too many sightings made by extremely credible people to disregard the possibility that higher intelligences may be checking us out. Mind you the fact that there is no known confirmation of this could indicate that they find us dumb, stupid and boring. Who knows?

[Jen]

Well that explains it Carl Sagan was a pot head wasnt he

[PeterM]

Nothing more to add to this thread from me, there are a few posts here that have just got to be pulling the leg....geez I hope so. The link below may be of some interest. Think I'll chill with the fairies in the garden....
http://badufos.blogspot.com/
PeterM

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Jen

Well that explains it Carl Sagan was a pot head wasnt he

He was, actually

[Exfso (Peter)]

Peter, I can assure you I for one am definitely not pulling anyone's leg. I reckon you could ask just about anyone who has worked in the Aviation operations area if they know of any strange happenings, and I would bet they have either experienced or know someone who has experienced something of this nature.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Nothing more to add to this thread from me, there are a few posts here that have just got to be pulling the leg....geez I hope so. The link below may be of some interest. Think I'll chill with the fairies in the garden....
http://badufos.blogspot.com/
PeterM

There would be no point in trying to convince you simply because I know how you think about this from what you've written. In actual fact, it's not my job to even try. You need to come to terms with this in your own time. If you don't or don't want to, then that's fine as well. We all see the world through different eyes.

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

Is the obvious answer that people who think UFO = little green men just want to brighten their dull lives with a good probing.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by pmrid

I like to test ideas by looking at them backwards. If there have been alien visits to earth, encounters between aircraft and alien craft, squadrons and flotillas of alien craft over this city or that, then we have to assume that those visiting aliens observed us more or less as we are - a species with a mastery of materials, construction, flight, telecommunications and so on and so on. Not a bunch of amoeba crawling about on a cave floor.

All that would be a given.

But then again, what could an intelligent amoeba be capable of??

Originally Posted by pmrid

Why, then, in all those encounters, if you accept for a moment that they were indeed encounters, has there never been any recorded communication, or attempt at communication? In all of those encounters, why has there never been the equivalent of a decent photo-stop, pee break, overmnight solourn, alien dirty weekend or whatever you want to call it.
Are we so unattractive a species that these visitors might have come all thiis way (and presumably from multiple distant places- not just one) and not attempted some form of contact, exchange of messages - why haven't we had a M.O.U with the Sirius B folks?

How do you know that there hasn't been any communication. Just because no one has come out with a tap recorded message or a book from any encounter that may have happened, doesn't mean to say that nothing has occurred. What was the last thing you heard your Grade 12 teacher say to you as you left school....now, prove it. You can't. It's the same here. Hypothetically, I could come out and say I've had extensive conversations with a group of alien scientists who regularly come here to observe this planet (I haven't, BTW, this is just a "what if") and I've learnt quite a few things. However, they wouldn't allow me to record the conversation or take with me any proof of the encounter. How would I be able to prove any of it, and despite having actually been in that situation, the fact that I had no proof...like a book or a recorded message...would make me look like a certified wacko. It would be my word against everyone else. Every "debunker" and "skeptic" and some scientists would descend down upon my head like a ton of bricks and the media would treat the whole affair as a joke. You can now see why most people would want to shut up and keep quiet about this sort of thing. The few who do have the courage to speak up, even if it's just pure fantasy on their part, still end up having to fall on their own swords and the way that most are treated is utterly despicable. If it were real, I would laugh at those idiots who rail against all of this, if they ended up experiencing an encounter themselves. I can tell you now, a great many of them would curl up into a little ball in the corner of the ship and babble away like demented fools. Their entire world views would come crashing down around their feet and they wouldn't be able to cope with the shock. Strip away a person's identity or a core belief system like that (and not just in a case like this...in any situation) and they go to pot. That's a fact. Only those who already "subscribe" to that world view or have strong enough personal integrity would manage to survive it intact. The same would also be applicable in the other direction as well, for some. This psychological deconstruction goes on when people get attacked for things like this and the guilty parties doing the damage seem to get some vicarious pleasure out of doing it....showing their greater powers of logic, rationality and "healthy skepticism" to the greater audience, most of whom are as ignorant as those doing the debunking, even more so. It's like one huge chest beating exercise as to who has the biggest brain/mouth/opinion/ego/set of qualifications etc etc.

And then you wonder why there's no "open" communication between us and them!!!. A quick look at our TV broadcasts and some judicious snooping on the radio frequencies coming from this planet would be more than enough to convince any intelligent group of explorers from any planet that apart from making a few attempts here and there, it would be pointless to even try and openly contact the species living here. You'd be putting your life in danger nearly every time you tried. They can't even agree to live together in relative peace amongst themselves, let alone with anyone else. The general populace of the planet, in some few areas, might be reasonably well behaved and sensible. But the rest aren't. Nor are their governments and militaries to be trusted. Observe them yes, contact them....only the few deemed appropriate enough to do so, the rest forget about. Let them continue to wonder about our presence and make up stories. And hope that one day they grow out of their petulant childhood and finally open their eyes. More for their own sakes than anyone else.

If I were in a position of finding a civilisation that was very much like us, that's how I'd treat them if I were an explorer from another part of the galaxy. For whatever you might think of the idea, the Prime Directive, of Star Trek ilk, is a very sensible idea and one we ourselves should heed once we become able to travel out amongst the stars.

Originally Posted by pmrid

If an idea is credilble, it generally balances out when looked at from a different perspective. The alien visitation idea does not. At least not to me.
Peter

How do you define "credibility"??. The goalposts for that little definition get shifted around all the time, depending on any number of circumstantial variables that might impact the situation at the time. Beliefs, perspective (world views, etc), emotional states, prior experiences...everything needs to be taken into account. One person's credibility is another's load of nonsense. I haven't seen one case at all, for anything, where someone's personal views and feeling haven't tainted a discussion about this question....or any other, for that matter. Especially with the subject of UFO's, objectivity rapidly goes out the window quite often on both sides of the argument. And, nothing comes of it, except innuendo and slanging matches. Even amongst scientists. If anything can remain objective for any period of time, where people are concerned.

[musab]

Remember now boys and girls your all
to listen to peterm dont listen to that
crackpot who walked on the moon whats
his name edger mitchell and that other
guy who went around the earth 22 times
it doesnt matter how many phd,s they
have or that dutch four star nato general
peterm is the authority on everything.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by musab

REMEMBER NOW BOYS AND GIRLS YOUR ALL
TO LISTEN TO PETERM DONT LISTEN TO THAT
CRACKPOT WHO WALKED ON THE MOON WHATS
HIS NAME EDGER MITCHELL AND THAT OTHER
GUY WHO WENT AROUND THE EARTH 22 TIMES
IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MANY PHD,S THEY
HAVE OR THAT DUTCH FOUR SAT NATO GENERAL
PETERM IS THE AUTHORITY ON EVERYTHING.

I thought you were of the view that PeterM was incorrect and now your post tells us to listern to him and he is the authority on everything...I am confused.

There is no need to get so passionate mate..the good thing about this site is that we all respect each others views and try and discuss things in a polite fashion reflective of the number of good folk who are members here.

I like the material you post..it is interesting but never presume you can tell me how to think...so chill out.

You should appologise to iceman in my view..to call him a troll is very silly he is the founder of this site and deserves respect..you havent degraded him but degraded yourself ...see we are friends here... who but a friend would bother to point out that you are being a dill.... read all his posts before you judge ..and in fact dont judge anyone just because someone does not accept what you feel is fact does not mean attack is called for.

Otherwise I take this opportunity to welcome you to iceinspace and look forward to you being a regular interesting contributor.

I try to approach the world that anything is possible but tend to rely only upon my first hand personal experieince... I dont care if the Pope said he has seen an alien..thats ok ..but like I say ..I need to meet one before I rule out the possibility...

Anyways I Hope you have a good day.
alex

[xelasnave]

I cant find the link but I read about folk being engaged in preparing strategies for a meeting should it occur... to get funding for such means someone knows something if they are working on getting the politics sorted...maybe.

The key is as with anything review the material and when you have a full understanding comensurate with the "experts" retain a view that reality may contain something unexpected which runs in a direction different to all expectations.

alex

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

Considering the age of the galaxy and the amount of stars (and so presumably Goldilocks Planets) it would be a little odd if there weren't civilisations older than us and actually civilised enough not to have incinerated their planet.
Having said that, it's unwise to be anthropomorphc and give attributes to others that we have ourselves.

The radio waves from this planet will only have proceeded into space 100 light years - not many planets will have picked up the signals and considering that we now no longer use commercial radio that penetrates the atmosphere (it's energy wasteful) most of what we transmit is just beacon stuff.

Other civilisatios would I think progress similarly and it would be difficult unless we had the right frequency (which in fact may be out of our normal band) to find them - SETI hasn't found anything yet.

So we find ourselves having just reached, in real terms, the radio/electromagnetic age. And all of a sudden we expect the air to be full of amazing transmissions.

As Prof Brian Cox noted, "all the radio telescopes in all the world have together over the period of their working lives picked up a total of energy that is the equivalent of the kinetic energy of a snowflake falling." In other words - b****r all.

Why do we expect to get such red carpet treatment to have visitation by 'others'? - personally I don't think our civilisation is anything to crow about and as the years pass, I despair of what we've failed to accomplish with the tools we've managed to 'invent'.

If things continue as they are, we'll be back to the stone age in a few years and have no way of producing the energy to progress to real civilisation, having learned the lessons we need to.

[xelasnave]

If we are alone and that could be proved beyond doubt to me (and that would seem impossible) I think I would go for the Popes version of history...

But I doubt if the whole place came into being (if you subscribe to a big bang rather than a static infinite universe) so life could be found only on Earth and that humans could be alone...
AND if a steady state model there is infinite time available for anything to happen...
Reasonable but proves zip.

The attempt by Drake to provide a formula, if it does nothing else, makes one consider the possible opportunities but any "life presumption input" will provide high probabilities ..still high probability is not proof and may be entirely misleading.

We simply dont know one way or the other in real terms and for my money any strong position folk take is meaningless other than it is interesting to hear out opinions and views..

alex

[Zaps]

Advanced beings with the ability to traverse interstellar/intergalactic space, voyage to Earth and make crop circles and frighten some low-IQ hicks.

Compelling.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

Advanced beings with the ability to traverse interstellar/intergalactic space, voyage to Earth and make crop circles and frighten some low-IQ hicks.

Compelling.

Zaps, ol' buddy....can you prove that any of these "hicks" have low IQ's??