The Universe is not an accident

[Nuri]

Even still... the galaxies are physically moving away from each other in a three dimesional space, right? If so, why can't we (with our limited 3 dimensional brains) calculate a single point of origin by backtracking from their physical direction?

[Dennis]

Hi Nuri

I understand that Isaac Newton believed that Space and Time were like a permanent backdrop, or stage setting and on that stage, life took place. Prior to relativity, it seems that we thought Space and Time were a constant and did not change no matter what happened to the actors on the stage.

So, it was acceptable to believe that you could gather all the matter in the Universe and place it in a corner somewhere, and Space would still be there, like an immutable backdrop, completely unaffected, in which we could make measurements.

However, it now seems that Space, Time, Matter, Energy, etc all "arrived" with the Big Bang, and that Space and Time are not an absolute, unchanging reference frame against which we can make the measurements that you suggest. If we are moving with a constant speed, or are accelerating or are in proximity to a large gravitational "mass"; then all these affect Space and Time for us.

Oh well, that's my 2c worth - I'm sure someone will correct me if I have misled you.

Cheers

Dennis

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by Nuri

Even still... the galaxies are physically moving away from each other in a three dimesional space, right? If so, why can't we (with our limited 3 dimensional brains) calculate a single point of origin by backtracking from their physical direction?

Because no matter where you are, you are at, what looks to you like the center. In other words there is no center and no edge or boundary.

Bert

[stinky]

Originally Posted by Nuri

Even still... the galaxies are physically moving away from each other in a three dimesional space, right? If so, why can't we (with our limited 3 dimensional brains) calculate a single point of origin by backtracking from their physical direction?

Baloon theory... paint dots on the surface of a balloon and inflate. You will find that the dots get further apart from each other and all at the same rate. No one dot is the centre

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Nuri

One of the issues I can't grasp is the expansion thing. Edwin Hubble proved that galaxies were physically moving away from each other at an increasing speed. Reversing the direction of the galaxies should lead us to the point where they all meet - the Big Bang, right? Well, cosmologists would say "no, the Big Band happenned everywhere simultaneously..." ...ummm, say again?

The evidence is that all the galaxies are moving away from each other (except galaxies in clusters) but the theory is that it is not the galaxies that are moving, rather it is space time which is expanding with the galaxies embedded in it. Rolling the film backward, we have space time compressed into a smaller and smaller volume.

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Dennis

Hi Ving,
Like you (and no doubt many others) I am having some difficulties with the “meaning” of an infinite universe. Not the mathematical concept, but the analogies and explanations used to help me peel away my layers of ignorance.

If infinite is taken to mean timeless and unbounded, that is, without a beginning and without an end, as well as not having any edges, then there can not be any differentiation within infinity. There can be no inside or outside, before or after, here or there, past or future. There can be no “thing” as all things have edges, colours, shapes, energy, characteristics, attributes etc which are bounded or finite, so we can recognize them, measure them, investigate them, describe how they operate, etc.

As far as I understand it, there can only be “one” infinity, not two or more. If there were two or more, then there must be an interface where one “ends” and the second one “begins”. If infinity is unbounded, it cannot begin or end; it can not have any edges; “it” must have always just “been”, everywhere and "outside" of time.

What seems to satisfy my (albeit limited) understanding of infinite, is as follows:
“it” can be the only “thing"; there cannot be two or more.
"it" must be unbounded or everywhere
“it” must have always been everywhere, as it cannot have arrived from somewhere else or arisen from some other event, or been made from other ingredients.
“it” must never have changed otherwise it has attributes and is therefore finite “it” cannot be grasped in a formula, thought, theory, etc because “it” has no edges or handles with which we can hold it.

We cannot “think” for ever. Our minds are limited. Through the sciences, studies of the mind, exploration etc we will continue to stumble upon and reveal what has always been there, just waiting to be discovered. But as our faculties and tools are but a sub-system of a larger system, of an even larger system ad infinitum, can we ever understand or “know” that “ultimate” system?
Cheers
Dennis

Dennis
I would like to complement you on this very thought provoking response.

[mickoking]

Originally Posted by Nuri

One of the issues I can't grasp is the expansion thing. Edwin Hubble proved that galaxies were physically moving away from each other at an increasing speed. Reversing the direction of the galaxies should lead us to the point where they all meet - the Big Bang, right? Well, cosmologists would say "no, the Big Band happenned everywhere simultaneously..." ...ummm, say again?

Space is expanding and it is dragging the galaxies (generally) with it. The Big Bang happened everywhere coz space was created with the BB. If the BB didn't happen in a pre existing space there can be no centre

[Starkler (Geoff)]

I personally have no problem with the concept of space and time being infinite.

I see no need to beleive that the big bang was the start of time and space. Matter could of existed in previous times, contracting into a space, causing the big bang and being flung outwards again?
Is there any problem with this model ?

[Lester]

Title= the universe is not an accident.

So! Who pushed the button for the big BIG BOOOOOOM?
Some will say mother nature her self
others will call him God (who ever their God or god is)
One thing is for sure It wasn't the Coyote

I am certain that whoever pushed the button is a whole lot more sivillized than us.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Lester, What have you against the Cosmic Coyote? ... or tassie devil

Let's face it people, we have no clue of what's going on. It is only our mortality that gives some of us the sense of urgency of having to figure it all out before "it's too late", but I personally do not believe I need to do that. I think the Universe, of which I am an integral part, is smart enough to look after itself. I was stardust a long time before I was ever born and I can't recall any problems there.

[avandonk]

If particles can spontaneously appear many times a second why can't a whole universe appear?
This is not about who is correct it is about what really goes on. When I first had a glimmering of an understanding of Quantum Theory I was still perplexed. Chaos theory then really got me thinking. We live in an indeterminate Universe, there is no such thing as predeterminism or fate!
It is up to all of us to do the best we can for ourselves and everybody else.
We are all responsible for our own future. All the actions we take now will have ripples through the next (pick your time period here) century. I am still trying to work it all out.

Meanwhile I have been a Guru to really rich stupid people and my future is assured as long as they don't find out!

Bert

[Lester]

No I have nothing against the coyote; but from hours of cartoon watching he never caught the road runner, so no chance of causing the Big BOOM except to blow him self up. Come to think of it he never died; now there's imortality.... No No please convince me that the coyote (COYOTE) DIDN'T push the button! Perhaps the universe and us are an accident!

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Lester, it was the other Coyote, the one in the Simpsons that appears to Homer in an "insanity pepper" induced hallucination.

If there is a "Go" button there must be a "Stop" or "Delete" button as well...

[Lester]

Thanks Steve,

I'll sleep like a top tonight. All I need to do now is find the delete button, just to undo a few things, you know what it is like. No that delete button,wears off after a while.

I want the permanant fix never to return delete button. Now where could that be hidden. This is just like the young ones going on a Easter egg hunt.

[stinky]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If particles can spontaneously appear many times a second why can't a whole universe appear?!

Bert

Good point - Our understanding in QP does permit this to happen and is part of the "universe" we understand. It does, though rely on the universe being here for it to happen. There is, as yet, no test for matter/energy creation outside of our universe.

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

How long are you lot going to go on with this “chicken or the egg” thing?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/ ...<P><FONT face=Which reminds me – I have this “good egg” story.
<o:p></o:p>
One Sunday, many “moons” ago, Mrs God say’s to Mr God – “Dear, I feel like eggs for breakfast”.
So of goes Mr God out into the bush in search of a couple of Emu eggs (like, the ‘Gods’ are Australian – right?)
He gets lucky and off he goes back to the kitchen with his Emu eggs.
“How am I going to cook these” he thinks to himself.
Brainwave! – just wrap em in some foil and put em in the microwave he reckons.
Ah! – so here comes the bit that interests us astronomers.
We all know what happens – right!
Foil in the microwave – ****** “Big Bang”.
So I reckon, all we can see up there with our scopes is all that egg floating around in the microwave.
Wadda ya reckon?
<o:p></o:p>
On a more Sirius note.
I think all astronomers should form a group with a more “Evangelistic” approach, and start recruiting as many people as we can to look to the heavens and try and solve its many mysteries.
When we can no longer fit them and their telescopes in our backyards, (and with all the donations we can ring out of them), I know where we can get a lot of buildings we can readily convert into Observatories.