Look after your people!

[iceman (Mike)]

Originally Posted by astronut

Mike (and everyone else)
MAS uses Local Community Insurance Services, they are based in South Australia.
We have been using them for approx 6 years, since the last blow up when the big insurers pulled out of the community group market.
I received a reply from them today stating "As far as our rates and products are concerned this is false information."
This was in relation to my question, that was posed here on IIS.

Cheers, John.

That's interesting, thanks John. If the new rates at WHH are a significant increase then I'll have to get in touch with your guys.

Originally Posted by Steffen

I wonder about the legality of having attendees of observing nights sign waiver forms through which they absolve the club from any liability for personal injury?

Cheers
Steffen.

We use a disclaimer at IISAC which people have to sign to attend the camp. I'm not sure it really waives you from all claims that may be brought, but surely it's some extra protection which is worth having.
Will have to ask Rod.

[DavidTrap (David)]

Originally Posted by iceman

We use a disclaimer at IISAC which people have to sign to attend the camp. I'm not sure it really waives you from all claims that may be brought, but surely it's some extra protection which is worth having.
Will have to ask Rod.

If it's anything like explaining risks of a procedure to a patient, you are not absolved of liability if you are negligent. Perhaps the "waiver" should be more about people acknowledging that there are risks about what they are engaging in, however the organisers would still have to minimise that risk.

The membership card to the national organisation for model aircraft says the following:

"Flying model aircraft involves inherent risks that may result in injury (or even death). The MAAA cannot provide a totally risk free environment. If unacceptable, immediately return this card to the MAAA Federal Secretary for refund of membership fee."

They have a lot of policies to minimise risk and a large insurance policy.

DT

EDIT - Just reread your form Mike - it seems to make people aware of the potential risks.

[iceman (Mike)]

Does anyone have any further information about the who/what/where that this claim supposedly originated?

[spacezebra (Petra)]

Hi Mike

I spoke to our contact at WHH when we received the email to enquire about whether we should respond on behalf of ASAW or BSG. No detailed info on the claim due to privacy.

Cheers Petra d.

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

And I guess that untill the case is settled, it would be better for those involved parties to keep quiet.

(So if they are listening in, they will be busting to defend themselves!)

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

You know, after reading this thread's development, and a few PM's on the matter, I am now seriously considering pulling the pin all together on the monthly jaunts a few of us mad dogs get up to.

If me, in organising this, am liable for any mishap that someone decides to pin on someone, then really ruins the whole thing.

We are not organised in any fashion other than as an informal get together of folks with a common interest. There is no way in the world this do could be formalised in any form - club structures, members, money, etc. It is hard enough for me to do what I do, and my good intensions have exposed my family's security, what a load of rubbish!

The whole thing has been done on good faith. Even asking a favour every month of the manager of the Airfield we use exposes them. Are we STARK RAVING MAD in this society now!

I am really pissed with this.

Oh, and actually, most folks who don't know anything about our hobby, and rock up to an astro viewing night, actually DO expect to attend a flood lit field! They really do. Just ask them. Then they see no lights at all, and they get defensive. Are we really surprised. I guess it's because we as the initiated take it for granted. Cripes I've even had ASIO called on me because some dope saw my truss dob as a suspicious device and refused to believe me that it was a scope.

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2003-02-16/

Don't fight against it, you can only lose! Just join a local club and enjoy doing what you do with their backing. All of the qld clubs do fantastic outreach work, and I'm sure that it is no diferent in NSW.

[casstony]

House insurance premiums can be reduced by installing security devices.

I wonder if a club could negotiate lower premiums by agreeing to supply each public visitor with a red torch? The rechargeable/wind up versions are quite cheap.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by kinetic

I have been trying to organise a school viewing night for 2 months now and
not once has the subject of insurance been put to me, either by the teacher
involved , or the school management helping to organise it.
Does that mean it falls back on me? Not sure.
It is to be held on their grounds, albeit after hours
Steve

If the viewing night is organised by the teacher, held on school grounds and you are invited along I don't think there's anything to worry about.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Thing is I don't need to join a club to use this site. Also no club in Sydney offers the same conditions within two hours of my home.

So you see for me it was a matter of sharing a unique place, not as an organised club arrangement.

I guess I'll just have to keep the site to myself instead of sharing a whole freaking airfield!

At the most I'll just be able to announce where my intention is to go just to let someone know for safety sake.

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my intention.

I'm talking about becoming a member of an astronomical club to make use of their insurances, not their facilities.

The reason behind incorporation is to provide legal protection to the members so we can enjoy our sport in resonable safety from prosecution. We don't put in all those hours of administration for fun - well, I don't

You pretty much need to be a member of a club in Qld to use a green laser anyway if you want to give a show!

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

I did understand, .

[Filby (Phil)]

Hot Topic!

This thread started with the commendable message that those who are more experienced with moving around and carrying out 'astronomy related activity' in the dark should show care for those who are new to such activity.

I myself am new to this hobby, and have had people look after me up at Mangrove Mountain.

This thread has listed and provoked a few good thoughts regarding appropriate behaviour to reduce the risk to my safety, as well as those around me.

These include
- at the start of the session take the time to point out relevant safety risks to beginners, or anything that has changed since last time
- everyone should have their own red light when walking around in the dark
- minimise trip hazards such as stairways and obstacles (chairs, boxes, logs, fences, cables, dark counterweight shafts, step ladders, car towballs, etc.)
- Create a protected and "indoor" environment for power cables and batteries when used outdoors in a dewy environment

Plus my 10 cents worth of other risks for comment:
- Set up before the sun goes down
- Careful use of risky equipment, such as powerful lasers and solar telescopes?
- Driving home in the dark along winding rural roads when sleepy and in a hurry to get to bed
- Mosquitos
- Exposure to cold
- Safe storage of equipment in vehicles
- Lifting injuries
- Bushfire
- Cranky astronomers
- What to do in the event someone does get an injury- nearest hospital, first aid kit, etc.

Do you have others? Lessons you have perhaps learnt first hand.

Such advice could reduce the likelihood of accidents, and thereby help keep insurance costs down.

Maybe a compilations of safety advice could be posted up there with the "Map to Mangrove Mountain" and "recipies for star parties" for the benefit of newbies like myself, or those who are learning the ropes solo?

[iceman (Mike)]

I got my renewal from WHH today - it is only a little more expensive than last year (about $40 more expensive).

Not as much as I expected.

Obviously your mileage may vary and may depend on how many activities you run, how many people come along etc.

[erick (Eric)]

Originally Posted by Filby

- Cranky astronomers

Cranky astrophotographers tossing cameras and laptops across the field at night!

I prefer to increase lighting if there are less experienced people present. Extra red lights on top of, behind and below equipment. Most SVAA camp attendees recall my "ring of death" red light rope that surrounds my little encampment - when I have 240V available.

If I bump into a chair, table, scope, tent rope in the dark, and I have , that's my fault, in my opinion. I'm not suing anyone*


(*except, perhaps the Tak owners. By definition, they have money!)

In seriousness, my main concern is mains electricity on the field. I'd like to see a thread with safety suggestions that we should all follow.

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Thing is I don't need to join a club to use this site. Also no club in Sydney offers the same conditions within two hours of my home.

So you see for me it was a matter of sharing a unique place, not as an organised club arrangement.

I guess I'll just have to keep the site to myself instead of sharing a whole freaking airfield!

At the most I'll just be able to announce where my intention is to go just to let someone know for safety sake.

I see what you are saying Alexander, but you have to bear in mind a few things. Being in a club or society doesn't insure the said club/society members, only the public. What it does do is provide a measure of protection for the organisers of the event in case some injury occurs. Because if there is an injury, in Queensland certainly, there will be an investigation by WH&S and the organisers will be held accountable, and left open for civil action. The airport will also be held responsible for any actions on their premises because they did not ensure that the situation was safe... I can assure you that they will not be happy to be dragged through the mud, face fines, and lose reputation.

The origin of this thread was just to make people aware that a "Once in a Blue Moon" freak accident could occur, and that if you do not do all that you can to mitigate the risk there will be consequences. Just because it didn't happen previously, because "this is the way we do it", because people should harden up and accept the risks, will not absolve you from any potential fallout. In an extreme case:- Moreton Thiocol played the acceptable risk game and are now held up as an example of how not to set your safety policy, and NASA barely escaped blame because they were relying on advice from Thiocol.

Again, the thread (as I read it) was to point out that be aware of safety:
Don't set tripping hazards
Make sure everyone knows what they must not do
Make sure that you are covered by some sort of insurance if the public are involved.

Safety lighting doesn't have to be floodlights and strobes. Strategically places LED lights, even white marker paint on the ground to show people safe pathways will help. We started doing that at the Queensland Astrofest and it is unbelievable how much this has helped even those who are old hands at the game.

No biggie, be safe and and you can share and enjoy your hobby with anyone.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Hey Tony,

I understand what you say, completely.

I'm just peeved that as an enthusiast, with no affiliation, just wanting to share, unwhittingly opens themself to a world of pain by inviting others to join them.

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

News in. 15% premium increase for QLD Astrofest (I've never been so relieved to get a 15% hike before!!!!)

[DavidTrap (David)]

Originally Posted by AstroJunk

News in. 15% premium increase for QLD Astrofest (I've never been so relieved to get a 15% hike before!!!!)

Just like your power bill probably! We used ~15% less electricity this quarter, but the bill was within $10 of the corresponding quarter last year...

Seriously though, even if this thread just causes people think about a few safety related issues, it will have served a purpose.

Being an imager, I'm more tolerant of light on the observing field - if I can't see where I'm walking I turn on a red light.

Erick - I agree, electricity is probably my biggest worry in the dew. I'm heading down the track of 12V everything. If only the batteries weren't so heavy - I'm probably more likely to do my back in rather than be electrocuted by 240VAC! I found a weather-proof box at Bunnings last year to put the power-packs in for the Christmas lights in the garden - it wasn't really suitable for our needs, but it might be a start?

DT

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

I forgot to mention Phil, that's a great list - if we all remembered to take a little time to explain basic safety then these accidents woudn't happen (or would at least be someone else's fault!)

Wise words from a newbie to the board

Originally Posted by Filby

Hot Topic!

This thread started with the commendable message that those who are more experienced with moving around and carrying out 'astronomy related activity' in the dark should show care for those who are new to such activity.

I myself am new to this hobby, and have had people look after me up at Mangrove Mountain.

This thread has listed and provoked a few good thoughts regarding appropriate behaviour to reduce the risk to my safety, as well as those around me.

These include
- at the start of the session take the time to point out relevant safety risks to beginners, or anything that has changed since last time
- everyone should have their own red light when walking around in the dark
- minimise trip hazards such as stairways and obstacles (chairs, boxes, logs, fences, cables, dark counterweight shafts, step ladders, car towballs, etc.)
- Create a protected and "indoor" environment for power cables and batteries when used outdoors in a dewy environment

Plus my 10 cents worth of other risks for comment:
- Set up before the sun goes down
- Careful use of risky equipment, such as powerful lasers and solar telescopes?
- Driving home in the dark along winding rural roads when sleepy and in a hurry to get to bed
- Mosquitos
- Exposure to cold
- Safe storage of equipment in vehicles
- Lifting injuries
- Bushfire
- Cranky astronomers
- What to do in the event someone does get an injury- nearest hospital, first aid kit, etc.

Do you have others? Lessons you have perhaps learnt first hand.

Such advice could reduce the likelihood of accidents, and thereby help keep insurance costs down.

Maybe a compilations of safety advice could be posted up there with the "Map to Mangrove Mountain" and "recipies for star parties" for the benefit of newbies like myself, or those who are learning the ropes solo?