Exactly. Why build them on Earth when we already have more available energy than we need. We're on the cusp of having commercially competitive solar energy - a modicum of political will would probably get us there. Solar panels either need to be more efficient or very cheap to produce, or both.
Instead of putting money into research pollies dream up complicated trading schemes. They won't be happy until they have a whole herd of white elephants.
I'm not completely against nuclear power Graham, but I'm annoyed that our glorious leaders seem to look past the bleeding obvious, ie. that great nuclear furnace in the sky that dumps enormous amounts of energy upon us. Even when they do notice it they waste money subsidising inefficient technology when the money could be put to better use.
we could power Oz by the sun, wind and waves, we get more sun than nearly any other country so why don't we
we could stop burning coal and retrain those people to work in the alternative power industries
the same as we could stop forrestry in old growth regions
but it's not politcally convenient to do so
if a PM and some pollies regardless of what party had the gumption to make tough decisions for this country and stuck by them then things would be different
carbon tax and solar power rebates are just piecemeal efforts and political niceties that force the onus back on the general population while industry prospers at our expense
why are we paying more for petrol now that when fuel was running at $110 a barrell at the height of the gulf war how soon we forget and how easily we are manipulated
As Mods, we realize that it will be difficult to keep political discussion out of this thread but we would respectfully ask that such discussion stay to the topic at hand, the nuclear emergency, and not fall into political "speculation".
New York Times article on the spent fuel rod pools
In an article in today's New York Times, reporters William J. Broach and Hiroko Tabuchi
report on the concerns over the pools holding the spent fuel rods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
By late Tuesday, the water meant to cool spent fuel rods in the No. 4 reactor was boiling, Japan’s nuclear watchdog said. If the water evaporates and the rods run dry, they could overheat and catch fire, potentially spreading radioactive materials in dangerous clouds
Shigekatsu Oomukai, a spokesperson for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, said the substantial capacity of the pool meant that the water in the pool was unlikely to evaporate soon. But he said workers were having difficulty reaching the pool to cool it, because of the high temperature of the water.
The article quotes David Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists, that
whereas the reactors are in thick walls, that "the spent fuel of Reactors 1 and 3 is out
in the open.”
The article also quotes a worrying 1997 study conducted by the Brookhaven National
Laboratory on Long Island that made some estimates on the hypothetical number
of fatalities that could occur within a given radius if a facilities spent fuel rods are
uncovered in the cooling pool.
The hope is that one way or the other, water will be able to be put into the pools to get them filled
before they boil dry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
Depending on the freshness of the spent fuel, Mr. Lochbaum said, the water in an uncooled pool would start to boil in anywhere from days to a week. The water would boil off to a dangerous level in another week or two.
Once most of the fuel is exposed, he said, it can catch fire.
What does my head in is that the press goes berserk about the nuclear threat and hypothetical death and illness while at the same time actual dead bodies are piling up in Japan, measuring 2500+ already and counting. What's wrong with people?
Twenty percent of the 440 commercial reactors in operation around the globe are located in areas "of significant seismic activity," according to the World Nuclear Association (WNA), an industry group.
Some of the 62 additional reactors under construction are also in quake-prone zones, along with many of the nearly 500 units on order or proposed, especially in fast-developing countries.
Many plants -- including the four Fukushima reactors crippled by the March 11 tsunami -- are located on or near coastal areas in the "Ring of Fire", a 40,000-kilometre (25,000-mile) arc of tectonic faults circling the Pacific.
.. Engineering norms meet scientific estimates, it says.
The last statement hooks up with my Science Forum thread which is turning out to highlight that regardless of how the media seems to imply that science can predict the nature of earthquakes (and some scientists even seem to be attempting to answer such questions), the fundamental unpredictability of earthquakes remains as a fact in science.
In this instance, scientists made estimates (as an input into the engineering process), and they underestimated the probability of big quakes along a tectonic plate subduction zone.
However, the tsunami, (which caused all of this), is more predictable. The size of the tsunami on the other hand, is related to the nature of the quake, and where it occurs.
At the moment, I do believe that it would not be a big ask of engineers, to make sure the diesel backups are at least protected against water intrusion, for the subset of reactors in question.
What is sobering are the NHK reports of the radiation levels in parts of the plant facilities themselves where at one point it peaked at 400 millisieverts an hour. The NY Times suggest that 75 minutes exposure to those levels will result in severe radiation sickness. NHK reported that exposure to 500 millisieverts for two hours would result in certain death.
The NY times report is accurate, but the NHK report that 500mSv for 2 hours would result in certain death is inaccurate. 500mSv for 2 hours = 1 Sievert exposure, which you can correlate with the chart below, or verify with the link provided, as to the probable results.
At low doses, such as what we receive every day from background radiation, the cells repair the damage rapidly. At higher doses (up to 100 rem), the cells might not be able to repair the damage, and the cells may either be changed permanently or die. Most cells that die are of little consequence, the body can just replace them. Cells changed permanently may go on to produce abnormal cells when they divide. In the right circumstance, these cells may become cancerous. This is the origin of our increased risk in cancer, as a result of radiation exposure.
At even higher doses, the cells cannot be replaced fast enough and tissues fail to function. An example of this would be "radiation sickness." This is a condition that results after high doses to the whole body (>100 rem), where the intestinal lining is damaged to the point that it cannot perform its functions of intake of water and nutrients, and protecting the body against infection. This leads to nausea, diarrhea and general weakness. With higher whole body doses (>300 rem), the body's immune system is damaged and cannot fight off infection and disease. At whole body doses near 400 rem, if no medical attention is given, about 50% of the people are expected to die within 60 days of the exposure, due mostly from infections.
If someone receives a whole body dose more than 1,000 rem, they will suffer vascular damage of vital blood providing systems for nervous tissue, such as the brain. It is likely at doses this high, 100% of the people will die, from a combination of all the reasons associated with lower doses and the vascular damage.
Notwithstanding Steffen's comment about an inappropriate focus not upon the people who have lost their lives I must say I hold grave concern for the future impacts of this crisis. WE can not change the recent past and it is not inappropriate to dwell upon a sad future.
AND it is impossible to separate the politics from this disaster. It is the politics that serves us the future of a world less safe than we would like.
I was disgusted to see our old mate Ziggy Z still offering straight faced reassurance that NP is all good as if nothing of consequence was happening and if is happening we should trust in the NP vision of clean power.
Are humans so arrogant that they can not grasp that notwithstanding their best efforts and their best laid plans that accidents do happen.
The reason accidents are so named is to indicate the occurrence of an unforeseen result and the best of science or engineering simply can never prevent an accident and are only left wringing their hands after each disaster.
Japans experience, where their history dictates earthquakes are the norm, has placed them well prepared for accidents yet accidents are not being managed such that all is remotely satisfactory. Can we not accept the fact that irrespective of our greatness the best of plans can be inadequate.
Np is a most wonderful resource but maybe we should limit its application to space travel to places where we receive no Sun and there is simply no alternative power source and any accident will not impact on all humanity. AND even that is not without risk as the vehicle leaves our planet.
We have all heard that we breath the same molecules that Hitler or other villains breathed throughout history so I ask how long will it be before all of us breath air contaminated via any of these accidents.
The NP lobby has sidelined coal for years as something to fear pushing their "brand" as being most wonderful as it will saves the polar bears etc... what nonsense we do accept when it is pushed upon us from vested interests unconcerned with human welfare and only with their focus upon profit.
I read today that all over folk are getting their NP plants "checked" as if you can fence a cow once it has run off thru the open gate and trampled the neighbors garden. The NP cow can never be safely and certainly fenced and will always from time to time cause damage to the neighbors lands.
I feel upset I am driven to comment on what could be called a political issue but it is really an engineering an science issue.... it is the politics that drives engineers and scientists to suggest they can do the impossible feat of predicting accidents and without diminishing their abilities clearly no human can foresee everything.
Having worked for 20 years in heavy industry I can say that the risk/reward equation is always in flux. When profits are high the emphasis on safety is high. When profits are skinny (or non-existent) plant maintenance is reduced and short-cuts are taken with operating procedures - management works within a budget for a particular period and maintanence is delayed if money is not available in a particular period.
I searched for TEPCO's profit results for the last few years:
FY MARCH 2008, 2009, profits were negative.
That's not proof of anything in particular, but whether or not financial issues contributed to the current problems needs to be investigated.
My thoughts are with the people of Japan in this matter .. in exactly the same way, my thoughts were with the cyclone and flood victims, recently.
They'll get through this, and their sacrifices will again benefit everyone else in this world. I admire their resiliency, social achievements and technological advances.
These people are fighters, and they will show us all how it is done.
The day I see the 'spin doctors', their lap dogs the politicians, and their collective families at these reactors with a bucket and spade to do the cleaning up, and not buggering off somewhere 'safe', only then should anyone feel 'safe'.
To say that an increase of 20x the background radiation is still 'safe', is outrageous!
Are we so gulable!
It's all about money, money, money. Nothing more.
God help the Japanese people, a third time. And all of us.
I have read of 'incidents' where the Japanese Nuclear Industry sequentially hired homeless men to dissolve Uranium Hexafluoride in a solvent. By sequentially I mean that once they had a decent dose of radiation they were turfed out and a new lot brought in.
One bright bunch of homeless men decided that the recipe demanding mixing small amounts of solvent and Uranium salt was a waste of time. So they did a big batch all at once! Yes it went critical! Cherenkov radiation was bright enough to be seen outside the mixing room.
They all died and there was a cover up.
If this is the level of management in the Nuclear Industry in radiation aware Japan, we can never trust these Nuclear Power adherents.
If it does go pear shaped, which way will the winds push the radioactive cloud?
Is there a possibility that the prevailing winds will drop this cloud on our collective doorsteps?
It doesn't sound likely to get that bad, but if it does it'll be confined to the northern hemishpere initially. Not sure how long it takes to mix into the southern hemishpere.
I have read of 'incidents' where the Japanese Nuclear Industry sequentially hired homeless men to dissolve Uranium Hexafluoride in a solvent. By sequentially I mean that once they had a decent dose of radiation they were turfed out and a new lot brought in.
One bright bunch of homeless men decided that the recipe demanding mixing small amounts of solvent and Uranium salt was a waste of time. So they did a big batch all at once! Yes it went critical! Cherenkov radiation was bright enough to be seen outside the mixing room.
They all died and there was a cover up.
If this is the level of management in the Nuclear Industry in radiation aware Japan, we can never trust these Nuclear Power adherents.
Bert
Bert,
A nice story but it seems to defy the laws of nuclear physics....
I've never heard of a uranium hexafluoride solvent that can also serve as a nuclear moderator to produce thermal neutrons that can initiate the reaction.
Regards
Steven
Last edited by sjastro; 16-03-2011 at 04:59 PM.
Reason: spelling
Mate I completely dissagree .. Its about the resilance of humanity more than you and I can ever grasp , thats so obvious in this latest terrible tragedy to drop on our meagre little planet .
The workers at the damaged plants are likely dealing with there own
life and death struggles personally , on top of having to try and roll the dice right where by even if you win, maybe you lose ( your life ).
people still searching and finding life amoungst all this carnage
its very humbling to me... possibly the barrows could be parked for a
while ...?
Interesting to note that the spent fuel rod pools are of severe significance at the moment. The fukushima facility has around 3500 spent fuel rods in the reactor buildings (across all 6), with about 6000 more in a shared pool and 400 in dry storage. It produces around 700 spent fuel rods per year. That means that there is a significant amount of spent fuel rods in the pools in each reactor building.
I understand that reactors themselves are built with several layers of safety precautions in mind, but I do not fully understand how dangerous the spent fuel rods are. Reports were that the temperature in reactor building 4 was recorded at 84 degrees yesterday, and they suspected the storage pool was boiling. How dangerous is it to have uncooled spent fuel rods? How hot can they get? What is a worse case scenario?
scary stuff i have to stop watching it on the TV its doing my head in 
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