This sort of nonsense should be ridiculed to the max

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

You should not let it upset you so much Carl.

As Bert said ask if any folk barking have had a paper published.

If one has a brain one will use it and come to reasonable conclusions so don't worry to much about how fools may influence others.

In the past I would bag big bang and an electric universe both in the one breath but my style is to attack to find truth, to expose my weakness to draw in an opponent to point out why I am wrong ....and that comes from being an ex lawyer not an ex scientist and my background said much about the way I went about things... it always saddened me to upset anyone or not to extend the respect they extended to me... I presented my ideas as a crackpot out of respect for the science I was trying to learn about... mainly so young ones would not be influenced by my off the track notions upon gravity etc.

There will always be folk who think different, act different etc and really it does not matter if they are right or wrong what matters is ones ability not to get upset and let an opposing view annoy you.

As I mentioned in another thread my best mate is a tarot card reader, believes in planet x, 2012 end of the world, various conspiracies etc etc... basically I could argue against any point he makes about anything really.. but I finally think...does it matter... it is his view what does it matter what he thinks it is not my job to re educate folk who believe in magic or god.

One can be concerned that folk with crazy views will influence others and the sad news is that happens all the time but I do not think burning their books is a good idea or trying to control their views.

Look at religion for example..I don't buy it but I live in a country that opens its parliaments with the recognition of a God I do not believe in...what do you do? get upset or simply realize the general premise of the above.

Please focus on stuff worth worrying about and don't push your blood pressure both for this and all the others you will encounter in your life.

best wishes

alex

alex.

Nahh .. some(most)times it helps to get angry !

[xelasnave]

It never never helps to get angry in my view... when I have it tends to ruin my life... but again we are expressing views and no one needs to be correct ...being old helps one to stay cool and when old staying cool I really believe keeps you young or rather stops you from drying out faster than others.

alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

It never never helps to get angry in my view... when I have it tends to ruin my life... but again we are expressing views and no one needs to be correct ...being old helps one to stay cool and when old staying cool I really believe keeps you young or rather stops you from drying out faster than others.

alex

Ahh .... (1) it depends on what you do with the anger .. and (2) being old doesn't mean suppressing the passion and staying 'cool' .. phooey to that .. !!

Cheers.

[OICURMT]

Interesting read here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfv%C3...ream_cosmology

being an engineer, I *really* love data to back up a point...

I am always ready to change my mind on the basis of sound scientific analysis based on hard data. I do it all the time when I analyze a reservoir engineering problem (oil and gas development). I don't see NASA doing anything different to me. Scientist always yield to the power of new data...

I do however have a problem with quoting papers that are not peer-reviewed and sanctioned. All scientific (science, engineering, medical, etc...) should be scrutinized by others in the field in order to weed out the wheat from the chaff. I've personally authored several papers in Petroleum Engineering. Two were deemed important enough to be peer-reviewed as new engineering methods to carry forward in my particular field of science. They rest of them stand on their own, with people welcome to ignore them or take them at face value. This is what makes the sciences great.

That said, I have noticed a definite belligerent attitude against Magueijo which I cannot explain. Peer-reviewed or not, there seems to be a dim view of his "solution" to one of the major problem with modern cosmology, the horizon problem (I find his notions intriguing).


OIC!
P.S. Sometimes I wish I studied physics instead of engineering... it would make it much easier to understand all this "*gobbledy-gook*" ...

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

You should not let it upset you so much Carl.

As Bert said ask if any folk barking have had a paper published.

If one has a brain one will use it and come to reasonable conclusions so don't worry to much about how fools may influence others.

In the past I would bag big bang and an electric universe both in the one breath but my style is to attack to find truth, to expose my weakness to draw in an opponent to point out why I am wrong ....and that comes from being an ex lawyer not an ex scientist and my background said much about the way I went about things... it always saddened me to upset anyone or not to extend the respect they extended to me... I presented my ideas as a crackpot out of respect for the science I was trying to learn about... mainly so young ones would not be influenced by my off the track notions upon gravity etc.

There will always be folk who think different, act different etc and really it does not matter if they are right or wrong what matters is ones ability not to get upset and let an opposing view annoy you.

As I mentioned in another thread my best mate is a tarot card reader, believes in planet x, 2012 end of the world, various conspiracies etc etc... basically I could argue against any point he makes about anything really.. but I finally think...does it matter... it is his view what does it matter what he thinks it is not my job to re educate folk who believe in magic or god.

One can be concerned that folk with crazy views will influence others and the sad news is that happens all the time but I do not think burning their books is a good idea or trying to control their views.

Look at religion for example..I don't buy it but I live in a country that opens its parliaments with the recognition of a God I do not believe in...what do you do? get upset or simply realize the general premise of the above.

Please focus on stuff worth worrying about and don't push your blood pressure both for this and all the others you will encounter in your life.

best wishes

alex

alex.

It's not so much as upsetting me, Alex, as I see what is basically bad science and sheer nonsense being targeted at people who would fall for it because they don't know any better. Where it's promoted as a serious alternative to standard theory when much of it is just pure speculation and has been looked at by many other scientists and rejected because it has little observational veracity whatsoever. I have never denied the importance of plasma physics in astronomy and have said so to these jokers numerous times, but it just falls on deaf ears because they're so awestruck by their own self importance that they can't see the forest for the trees. You know yourself, I am no one for just towing the party line, so to speak, and Steven would even say so himself, but there comes a time when you just have to say something has just gone too far. There's nothing wrong with stating an idea or theory about something, but you have to be able to back what you say up with good, hard and verifiable data, not just opinion, supposition and circumstantial evidence. You also don't go and take science, any science, and turn it into a farce, as these guys have. And worst of all, if you're going to make mention of a field of study outside your expertise, unless you extremely certain of what you're saying, you should expect to be criticised and very strongly rebuffed. For instance, how would it sound for a geologist to turn around and tell a neurosurgeon what to do?? Or for yourself to turn around and tell a fully qualified mechanic that he didn't know what he was doing or talking about??. That's exactly what these guys are doing. Regardless of Peratt's and Scott's qualifications as electrical engineers, what would they actually know of astronomy/astrophysics, cosmology, geology etc. I wouldn't tell them how to do their work, I'm not qualified to. So what makes them special enough that they feel (overly) qualified to make pronouncements about astronomy and geology (and other areas of science) that makes them so much more informed than all the others in those fields. Why should they be privy to information or knowledge that all those in these fields not have. They then criticise those scientists in these fields for "bad science" and expect to be taken seriously. To make matters worse, you have dopey twits with no expertise in any of these fields, or in anything at all for that matter, loudly proclaim for all and sundry to hear that they have some sort of "secret" knowledge they wish to grant on the great unwashed and those heathens they deem other scientists!!!. Give me a break!!!. David Talbott isn't even a scientist, despite what his degree might say, Wallace Thornhill only has an undergrad degree in physics and electronics, and Eric Lerner, a self styled "plasma physicist", with barely a undergrad degree in the subject, for the most part a sci-fi author. None of them ever finished post grad, even when they actually took it up. And they are the "Doyens of the Electric Universe", along with Peratt and Scott. At least Peratt and Scott have recognised postgraduate qualifications and reputations in their field. As for the fringe dwellers who hang on their word, enough said about them, the better (as I mentioned before).

That's why I seem upset, Alex. Anyone with half a brain can see what they're at here...for some it's just sheer unadulterated promotion of their books, for others it's just an ego trip into areas of science they have no business stepping into without having the proper knowledge to do so, and for the fringe it's just another thing to believe in until something else shinier and newer comes along. It's quasi religious in nature and reeks of cultism.

[marki]

Originally Posted by renormalised

There's nothing wrong with stating an idea or theory about something, but you have to be able to back what you say up with good, hard and verifiable data, not just opinion, supposition and circumstantial evidence.

Well what is gravity you ask? I have seen many arguments on this site but have sat back smuggley knowing the undisputable answer. It's like this see. All things on Earth have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. These fine little creatures cover every nook and cranny and they are very strong due to their huge numbers. Now if you get a really good magnifying glass you will see the Earths surface is actually made up of little tiny wincey hooks to which by some evolutionary reason, bacteria cannot help grabbing onto. Wallah our bacterial overlords are the cause of gravity not some silly notion of attraction between masses. Based on this observation (carefully studied after tripping in a gutter after a good night out) I here by propose an astounding and well supported theory that we will only find gravity were bacteria live and all this stuff about interacting galaxies is shear nonsense. If you need proof well I only have to point to evidence gathered by NASA when humans set foot on the only other other celestial body besides Earth. No traction, bouncing all over the place, and the film footage is there for all to clearly see. We know only a few strains of bacteria can live without oxygen so the delpeated numbers were not enough to give the astronaughts any grip. Now I am off to frame my postulate to explain dark matter. Some how I feel this is going to be a grave situation .

Mark

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

Well what is gravity you ask? I have seen many arguments on this site but have sat back smuggley knowing the undisputable answer. It's like this see. All things on Earth have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. These fine little creatures cover every nook and cranny and they are very strong due to their huge numbers. Now if you get a really good magnifying glass you will see the Earths surface is actually made up of little tiny wincey hooks to which by some evolutionary reason, bacteria cannot help grabbing onto. Wallah our bacterial overlords are the cause of gravity not some silly notion of attraction between masses. Based on this observation (carefully studied after tripping in a gutter after a good night out) I here by propose an astounding and well supported theory that we will only find gravity were bacteria live and all this stuff about interacting galaxies is shear nonsense. If you need proof well I only have to point to evidence gathered by NASA when humans set foot on the only other other celestial body besides Earth. No traction, bouncing all over the place, and the film footage is there for all to clearly see. We know only a few strains of bacteria can live without oxygen so the delpeated numbers were not enough to give the astronaughts any grip. Now I am off to frame my postulate to explain dark matter. Some how I feel this is going to be a grave situation .

Mark

Well, you could be right, you know. Bacteria outweigh all the other living creatures on this planet by a substantial margin. Surely this must contribute to the mass of the planet in general....and those little hooks, along with the gooey stuff they secrete as waste products must be keeping all of us firmly planted, feet to the ground

[xelasnave]

Carl I understand how you feel... at least if these folk are occupied with fractured science it will at least keep them out of politics.

MArki I can accept that bacteria are responsible for gravity but only if they do it via push.

alex

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by marki

Well what is gravity you ask?.... Some how I feel this is going to be a grave situation .

This is sooo cool!.... I never figured domestos being the next break through in anti-gravity devices.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Carl I understand how you feel... at least if these folk are occupied with fractured science it will at least keep them out of politics.

MArki I can accept that bacteria are responsible for gravity but only if they do it via push.

alex

Only one problem Alex, we already have jokers like these in politics. They beat their EU buddies to the punch years ago

Oh, it's not only push...it's pull, prod, slime and slither

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

This is sooo cool!.... I never figured domestos being the next break through in anti-gravity devices.

Patent it Marc, quick, before someone else does

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Patent it Marc, quick, before someone else does

Where can I buy the book ?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Where can I buy the book ?

Bunnings or Mitre10

[marki]

Hah I have only just got started. Want mathematical proof? Easy and no silly calculus will be needed.

1 bacteria + 1 bacteria = 2 bacteria.

By my definition that = 2 x the grabbing power thus double the gravity. The silly physics crowd would simply try to explain it away as double the mass. As for the antigravity by demestos....too late Marc I already have a patent for that one. Soon supermarket shelves will be filled with bottles of antigravity magic on special at $1.99 . And Alex, gravity is not push but rather push/pull with elements of suck, twist and blast. I will release the details when I have finalised the hypothesis and founded the Church of Cosmological Bacteriology.

Mark

[rally]

Carl,

I have pondered over this thread a few times.

You may be right (probably) and you may be wrong (not impossibly) but I am not sure that it matters.

Firstly, you can never silence them, more likely you have furthered their cause, by this very discussion, much of which can now be regurgitated and taken or misquoted out of context should that be desired, but you have certainly promoted it and you have brought further awareness of the "theories" you speak about.
Any publicity is good publicity sometimes !

However, silencing people with any sort of ideas is not necessarily a good thing (nor possible) - Science would never have been allowed to prosper if all who spoke up was silenced in the beginning or worse yet gave up.

We do live in a true democarcy where people have a right to an opinion rightly or wrongly - the internet is unfortunately living proof of that and the ability to promote them, but it will take more than a few crusades to change that and that process never worked either !

But what I think should be considered is - if some silly goose wants to invent a baseless theory and an even smarter goose gets stimulated by the ideas presented and comes up with a variant and forumulates his own hypothesis and a brilliant Goose then develops some tests and experiments to validate some aspect of so that many other smart and brilliant geese can agree - then maybe we are on to something !
Its not the peer review process I am discussing here - its the collaborative exchange of ideas - good and bad that stimulate thought and further ideas.

The standard model isn't working properly, that we know all too well and some sort of a paradigm shift may well be required to develop an alternative unified theory/model - so far that hasnt come from mainstream scientific thought, so maybe we should not be so quick to dismiss them outright.

I am not advocating that you accept their theories at all or in any way, but many of sciences best discovereies were discovered by accident or were developed from an offbeat idea well away form mainstream acceptance that showed promise.

And where do the the string theorists fit ?

Just a thought.

A lively one this be !

Cheers

Rally

[xelasnave]

Hey Rally how are you going...

Look don't worry about the standard model I have nearly fixed it ...

Even now CERN are looking for my push particle and I feel they will find it although I think where they are looking for a single 200 pv item unfortunately it will be a group of particles that add up to 200 each of only 50 pv and strangely it will take five 50 pv units to make up 200pv ... so even if they dont find a single big one I know there will be smaller ones making up for the projected mass of the HB (pv is short for push volts)

Anyways so good to know you are alive and well.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by rally

Carl,

I have pondered over this thread a few times.

You may be right (probably) and you may be wrong (not impossibly) but I am not sure that it matters.

Firstly, you can never silence them, more likely you have furthered their cause, by this very discussion, much of which can now be regurgitated and taken or misquoted out of context should that be desired, but you have certainly promoted it and you have brought further awareness of the "theories" you speak about.
Any publicity is good publicity sometimes !

However, silencing people with any sort of ideas is not necessarily a good thing (nor possible) - Science would never have been allowed to prosper if all who spoke up was silenced in the beginning or worse yet gave up.

We do live in a true democracy where people have a right to an opinion rightly or wrongly - the internet is unfortunately living proof of that and the ability to promote them, but it will take more than a few crusades to change that and that process never worked either !

But what I think should be considered is - if some silly goose wants to invent a baseless theory and an even smarter goose gets stimulated by the ideas presented and comes up with a variant and formulates his own hypothesis and a brilliant Goose then develops some tests and experiments to validate some aspect of so that many other smart and brilliant geese can agree - then maybe we are on to something !
Its not the peer review process I am discussing here - its the collaborative exchange of ideas - good and bad that stimulate thought and further ideas.

The standard model isn't working properly, that we know all too well and some sort of a paradigm shift may well be required to develop an alternative unified theory/model - so far that hasnt come from mainstream scientific thought, so maybe we should not be so quick to dismiss them outright.

I am not advocating that you accept their theories at all or in any way, but many of sciences best discovereies were discovered by accident or were developed from an offbeat idea well away form mainstream acceptance that showed promise.

And where do the the string theorists fit ?

Just a thought.

A lively one this be !

Cheers

Rally

Yes and that's a problem. Any publicity can be good or bad, it all depends on how you read it. But something like this needs to be brought to people's attention because despite any good that may come to them from it, eventually they'll be seen through quite clearly and then ignored.

It's not about silencing people or ideas, it's about exposing the nonsense that some promulgate as sound science and alerting people to the fact. Especially when they go out of their way to ridicule the science and reputations of those that actually do sound science. Most of the fringe dwellers haven't a clue anyway, and are rather hypocritical in their behaviour.

True democracy...that is so fallacious on so many levels, but that's not the problem here or the subject matter. We all have rights to opinions and such, but even that isn't the crux of the matter. What the whole thing is about is truth and honesty in science, about the scientific method, about sound and accountable science. It's not about promulgating the fantasies of a few individuals, spiced up with science that has been misused in order to push an ideological bent that has nothing to do with science but more to do with cult catastrophism and alternative historical musings. Much of this recent stuff can be traced to one man, Immanuel Velikovsky. If you don't know who that is, look him up on wiki. You'll see where their raison detre comes from.

It may take a silly goose to come up with a baseless theory and another lot of gooses to come up with another theory and experiments to test them, but the problem with baseless theories and silly gooses is for the most part they lead science down a dead end...up the garden path. Carl Sagan I think it was who put it very elegantly, quote... "It's always good to keep an open mind to things, but not so open it becomes a sewer"...end quote. That's true of anything, but especially of science. You can get to the point of entertaining such ridiculous notions, if you're not careful and thoughtful enough, that it becomes less like science (or whatever) and more like religion. A journey into cloud cuckoo land. Despite any scientific trappings it may bring along with it.

Yes, many scientific discoveries were generated by accident and by unique thinking, but not by going off on some wild tangent and dragging science along with it for the ride. At least, not science that has been basterdised to suit some other agenda.

String Theory will live or die on its own merits....future science will be the arbiter of that, not the present. Not unless there's some major breakthrough in empirical science and theoretical understanding.

[GrahamL]

What happened to the amateur science forum for this Carl ?

Its been pretty quiet though all the open astronomy forums since this stuff had been given a home of its own .

I mean no offense to the many genuine and informative posts in regard to science in the forums but the need to drag this
particularly questionable subject matter out of were it should be !

Why so ??

[DavidU (Dave)]

Look here, 5th paragraph down.
http://www.anomalist.com/

[rally]

Hello Alex !

I am not sure they will find your PP - Push Particle - but then maybe its actually a Force and you have had it wrong all along

For your sake I hope they do, but the bookies wont be getting any money from me, likewise they probably wont lose any money from someone finding the Higgs Boson either, but I am sure they will discover many things of significant interest.

Alive and well - yes, but it seems astrophotography is all consuming - its all about getting there rather than actually doing it !
Keeps me off the streets.

Everyone seems to get so wound up by the Meaning of Life and the answer to the Universe and Everything !
Sure its the biggest most important unanswered question of all time, but its not a holy war.
. . . in the mean time life goes on, normally.

Cheers

Rally