Speed doesn't kill

[desler]

Hey all, there are a number of points to look at and I've deliberately stayed away from this thread, because as has been said, there will always be divided opinion.

The european licensing system, has vast differences in requirements and skill sets to obtain depending on the Country.

Whilst I would agree the German and to a greater extent the Finnish licensing models are incredibly good, long in time to get and very expensive comparatively. The data suggests that the models work for the better of road safety.

Of note, there is also a cultural difference in attitudes to driving that are far more compelling in judging relative safe speed limits. Driving is seen as a developmental procedure where children are encouraged to join various motor sport categories and undertake extensive real world driver training, not crawling around a few quiet suburban streets and using a couple of well placed stickers on the driving instructors car to enable reverse parking as in the case in Australia. Driving in Australia should be a privilege and not a right as it seems to have become!

The Australian roads are designed and engineered based on standard assessment models.

These models address everything from road surface design, lane width, emergency provisions and off road obstructions. These are generally the things that limit speeds on our local roads.

Does speed kill? A relatively inane question as I've seen peds killed at less than 10K's.

Is it a simple, catchy message to get to Australians via the mass media. Of course it is, who hasn't heard of drink and drive, your a bloody idiot?

The general concept of speed limits is that no Government can accurately assess the driving prowess or lack thereof of an individual driver, thus we have a determined safe speed for various roads based on models that even the worst driver should be able to cope with.

Are there always going to be people who can drive them quicker? Yes... But who can judge? and then from an enforcement issue, who says who can drive faster than others.

The basic rules are determined for the lowest possible denominator based on data. The various media pushes are simply created by marketing people to achieve an easy to understand and deliverable message to the community to enable an attitude change.

Can any speed limit or law protect you in every instance? Of course not; as old Mr Bilbo once said

"It's a dangerous thing stepping out your front door"

My 2 cents worth! How much is that with GST???????

[TrevorW]

Speed percei does not kill ask any racing car driver speed in excess of what is practical for the conditions can

Speed camera's where supposedly introduced to reduce the roadtoll what a load of BS all they are a revenue raisers

Speed is not the primary cause of accidents

more Police on the road I say

[GrahamL]

Pete do you still fly jets full of peeps for a living mate ?

your ongoing rants about compliance with bureaucrats and there
rules worrys me on a personal level .. as I hate flying

Local roads / and a lot of the hwy included around here ...should all be 80 imo .. they can fill the holes but not level the road.. so its puddles everywhere.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

Pete do you still fly jets full of peeps for a living mate ?

your ongoing rants about compliance with bureaucrats and there
rules worrys me on a personal level .. as I hate flying

I prefaced this thread as my hobby horse

How strange, millions of people travel around the globe daily at Mach 0.79 to 0.86 and the tabloids rarely notice these fatal speeds.

I've spent around 80% of my working life at around Mach 0.84...hence, sorry, I can't subscribe to a "speed kills" (& brain dead IMHO) mantra.

The aviation world has "rules" (eg IFR) that work globally and are designed to save you ass. Yes! I follow them with some devotion.

The motoring world (in Oz) doesn't really have *anything* equivalent. Just a bunch of (revenue raising?) fines and rules such as "stop at at red light"..duh?

Sorry, if you can't work out there is a difference between ploughing through a school zone at 100+km/hr and being on a dual carriageway near Yass at the same speed, you should not hold a drivers license.

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

Originally Posted by Octane

Peter, Alt+0233 (numlocked keypad) will give you the accent you're looking for.

H

How do you KNOW this stuff?? Kudos!!!

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

Sorry Pete,
In general and in principle I agree with you, too many bureaucrats is not enough as far as they're concerned. But when it comes to high-speed hijinks, there are just too many variables to account for. Skill levels, car condition, road condition, weather, wildlife, etc. etc.

As to the Autobahns:
"Millions" is I think, an overstatement.
Having commuted between Waldorf and Frankfurt three times a week for 23 months I can attest that of the many thousands who drive the Autobahn(s), every day maybe 1% drive in the 'no limit' lane and most of them at no more than about 140-160kph.
If they don't scare themselves ****less, they run out of petrol long before any serious mischief occurs ( A GT2, Enzo, Murciellago or Veyron at flat-chat will be skosh juice in about 4-7 minutes).

Also, the Autobahns are always being repaired and covered in 50kph zones, so the average speed is closer to 70kph than 100+

Mercedes make big, beefy, buggeringly-fast cars to appeal to those who like same, and God love 'em for it!. But the 'Green' lobby (hiss! boo!) in Germany is ALWAYS after them (and BMW and Opel and, and, and,....), so I would take their "Studies" with a massive grain of salt! As I would Porsche's or Ferraris or 'Ghini's

Skill level, car design,(brakes?), climate and geography all mitigate against high-speed roads here. While the Monash and that horrible stretch of road north of Sydney, might be perfectly respectable commuter highways they are in no way equipped to handle speeds in excess of 120kph. Not with the traffic they carry.

Doubtless there are hundreds of roads in Australia where you could, safely exceed 250kph (my driveway is one ), even if you had only yourself to kill, but why risk it?
Anyway, driving 'quick' is a lot more fun than driving fast, IMHO of course!

ATB
Peter

[OneOfOne (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Oh please, its like guns dont kill. Its easy, no guns, no kill (by guns), no speeding, no kill (by speeding).

Yes, I agree, the old "guns don't kill" has to be one of the most lame statements people use as a defence for their favourite hoby and anyone that uses such petty logic is obviously grasping at straws.

I would like to say that nuclear missiles and bombs don't kill either (exactly the same argument). Did anyone die as a result of all of those Minuteman missiles stored in silos in America after WWII?....unless one fell on them, I think the answer would be a no. Therefore, everyone should be allowed to collect any type of explosives they wish...

Sorry, couldn't resist picking up on a favourite rant of mine

[multiweb (Marc)]

Speed does kill in the wrong hands unfortunately. Doesn't matter how flat and wide the autobahn is or how good your car is. It's all about response time and how much driving experience you have. If you barrel down the free way at 160kph and some idiot gets in the right lane without indicating at 90kph you don't have much time to react. A P-plater won't have developed the reflexes that a more experience driver may have. I also agree that driving at 110kph to Canbera is non sense on such a good road. We could be there in 1h tops instead of 3h.

Maybe they should implement a licence system based on rewards. You start slow as a P-plater. No accidents or infractions? Then you move on to a "faster" licence sort of speak and your maximum speed limit increases. So over time at the other end of the spectrum you will get sound people with experience who are not hoons. Even if they are they can drive anyway. Ideally this should only be implemented on interstate/city roads and freeways . Residential speeds/school areas limitations,etc... are fine as kids are unpredicatable.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

In short, it's not how fast you drive, its simply how you drive.

Peter, are you for real!

You really think that only YOU are responsible for the safety of yourself? Everyone on the road is responsible for the safety of everyone else too.

You are really that confident to aviod all the goons who think they can drive, me included?

And don't make sweeping statements like " only 3% of accidents occur on the autobans" when these accidents I'm quite sure will be 100% fatal (now you disprove that one!)

I will also bet that everyone of these "3%" of accidents ALL involved some combination of overconfidence, overpowered cars and expericenced driver/ underexperiecned driver. These "3% of accidents" left hundreds of people ripped up, along with the remaining 97%.

Like I said, I don't want my family to fall victim to hoons. You are an experienced driver, there is a place for you- the racetrack.

You can afford the car, then you can afford the racetrack fees.

Leave the pot-holed goat tracks to the rest of us.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

I've spent around 80% of my working life at around Mach 0.84...hence, sorry, I can't subscribe to a "speed kills" (& brain dead IMHO) mantra.

Sorry, if you can't work out there is a difference between ploughing through a school zone at 100+km/hr and being on a dual carriageway near Yass at the same speed, you should not hold a drivers license.

Up in the stratosphere, mate, YOU are the only one doing Mach 0.84! No one else within cooee of you.

The second statement, YES, I agree. But don't confuse it with the upping the speed limit. Very different kettle of fish from your hobby horse.

We have hoons on the road that just can't stop from speeding, totally disregarding the safety of others because "only they are responsible for themself". Upping the speed limit in Oz will only reinforce this false notion in them.

You said yourself that licensing requirements are to soft here in Oz. Upping the speed limit will do nothing for those already with a claytons license in their hands, will it?

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Peter, are you for real!

Very much so. The point I am trying to make is in appropriately regulated environments, travel at speed can be conducted with excellent safety........Just as it would be madness to place some untrained drunken hoon in the cockpit of a high performance aircraft

BTW it was also the Sydney Morning Herald that ran a piece that stated... (re: autobahn safety) this....

Despite having no speed limit along much of their routes, these massive roads account for 31 per cent of road travel and just 3 per cent of the road toll. A 2005 study by the German interior ministry found sections with unrestricted speeds had the same crash rate as sections with a variety of speed limits imposed.

For sure, not all autobahn users are in the latest 7 series Beemer doing 240km/hr plus. But even those that are still slip back into a right hand lane after overtaking as a matter of courtesy.

Many Oz drivers are mugs in comparison...they chug along a 110km/hr limit freeway, in the right lane at 95-100km/hr and never think to move left.

If we are ever to get serious about the Oz road toll, seems to me serious efforts need to be made in: driver training, flow control, vehicle standards & road standards.....and may well involve *raising* speed limits for some roads.

To morosely focus on speed at the expense of all else clearly isn't working.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Unfortunately I don't see increasing the speed limit will help in Oz. I don't think that the hoons in their hotted up Skylines or WRX STi or Beemer will be responsible citizens. They are not now. They won't be then. And we have to share the road with everyone and there is no way in the world that the government will be able to have people up their driving skills to warrant an autoban being built.

The governments of Oz have allowed a situation to develop with the licencing requirements since cars were introduced. We all have to suffer the consequences. No one's fault though.

If you do have the advanced driving skills, then most of the time it will be to avoid dills like me on the road, . I wouldn't dream of driving on an autoban with my driving experience. I don't think everyone would recognise their limitions too. Though I'm sure my car would be able to handle 160km/h, I doubt too many cars would, as a population of cars, not models. Very dangerous combination of the two: inappropriate car and lack of 'self knowledge'.

That is the reality of the situation. No?

I like this thread. Good arguements.

[Rob_K]

How ridiculous, of course speed kills! If I hit a tree at 10km/h I flip the mobile and call my insurance company. If I hit the tree a 100km/hr, my wife at home calls the undertaker. Full stop.

What we do is regulate and control lethal speed to reduce the risk of death to an acceptable level. We do this through licensing, road standards, car design and speed limits. If we can reach an acceptable level while allowing 160km/hr or more as in the case of autobahns, terrific. I don’t understand what your argument is Peter – what on earth is it that you’re suggesting? Give us a model for Australian roads.

Cheers -

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

Though I'm sure my car would be able to handle 160km/h, I doubt too many cars would, as a population of cars, not models.

You'd be surprised how many cars can reach that speed actually. When I moved here in Oz I was a bit foot heavy on the gas pedal because I was used to it. My first ticket was a speeding fine. Well I was still in overseas mode... The speed limit is 130kph on freeways back there. If you drive at that speed with everybody else in the flow it's fine and quite comfortable even in a small car. Over 150kph you need a solid sedan but it's still ok. Over long distance trips it would help with driver fatigue as well I reckon. And Oz is big .... very big. Driving from A to B in the country at 110kph is a real pita.

Most of the deadly accidents I know of back home happen on country roads in tree trunks because people speed on these two. But on the freeways it's unheard of. Unless there's a massive pile up in fog but that is extremely rare.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

How ridiculous, of course speed kills!

To paraphrase Clarkson...traveling at speed never killed anybody. It's coming to an abrubt halt that causes the damage.

Therein lies the key. Regardless of how fast you are going, it's crashing into things that will ruin your day.

So rather than focus on your speedo every few seconds: try looking out and assess the traffic to flow, keeping a safe distance from the car in front, anticipating hazards, drive predictibly, don't talk on the phone, SMS, have a shave, eat a big mac, sip your coffee, light up a cigarette, do your lippy etc. etc. This would all come under the heading "driver training"....which is woeful in Oz.

Rather than have our young people complete some assinine 120 hour logbook, give then some real training. eg wet wether, skid control, emergency braking, collision avoidance skills etc.

Sure it will cost, but the current testing regime of pottering aound 40-50km/hr, reverse parking and a hill start is a joke.

Adpot the German model for DIU. Zero tolerance, and if you cash and injure someone, go to gaol, ifs, buts or excuses.

Get in you local members face and demand better roads.

Sack the bureaucrats who thought it was a good idea to have 3 speed zone changes within a few hundred metres on the same stretch of road.

Get the coopers to target irresponsible & dangerous driver behaviours: eg tailgating, failure to indicate, not giving way, not moving to the left on freeways, double parking etc.

Get crappy cars off the roads. I have no problem with the current NSW annual roadworthy check, it should be national and more stringent.

[Rob_K]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

To paraphrase Clarkson...traveling at speed never killed anybody. It's coming to an abrubt halt that causes the damage.

Therein lies the key. Regardless of how fast you are going, it's crashing into things that will ruin your day.

So rather than focus on your speedo every few seconds: try looking out and assess the traffic to flow, keeping a safe distance from the car in front, anticipating hazards, drive predictibly, don't talk on the phone, SMS, have a shave, eat a big mac, sip your coffee, light up a cigarette, do your lippy etc. etc. This would all come under the heading "driver training"....which is woeful in Oz.

Rather than have our young people complete some assinine 120 hour logbook, give then some real training. eg wet wether, skid control, emergency braking, collision avoidance skills etc.

Sure it will cost, but the current testing regime of pottering aound 40-50km/hr, reverse parking and a hill start is a joke.

Adpot the German model for DIU. Zero tolerance, and if you cash and injure someone, go to gaol, ifs, buts or excuses.

Get in you local members face and demand better roads.

Sack the bureaucrats who thought it was a good idea to have 3 speed zone changes within a few hundred metres on the same stretch of road.

Get the coopers to target irresponsible & dangerous driver behaviours: eg tailgating, failure to indicate, not giving way, not moving to the left on freeways, double parking etc.

Get crappy cars off the roads. I have no problem with the current NSW annual roadworthy check, it should be national and more stringent.

Aha, there we have it Peter, at last you've come clean! "I drive a beamer and I'm a really good driver. Why should I have to put up with laws that accommodate less experienced drivers and people with less money to spend on expensive cars when I could be baggin' it up the highway at a billion k's?"

Well done mate!

Cheers -

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

Why should I have to put up with laws that accommodate less experienced drivers and people with less money to spend on expensive cars

Hey Rob do you really believe the law about speed limits is to be accommodating to people or save their lives? If it was in the best interest of people on the roads all cars would be mechanically fitted not to exceed a specific speed limit. Overseas they'll fine you for doing 140kph instead of 130kph, here you'll get the same for doing 120kph instead of 110kph. Different numbers same BS.

[Hagar (Doug)]

All the winging in the world won't change the law. If it';s 110KM then you deserve to be booked at 111KM. Actual.

If the only car Peter could afford was an old beatup hilman capable of 100KM/hr max them this post wouldn't have even started.

Driving a car at speed is best left to those who do it on a race track. Leave the rest of us to dawdle around our highways.

[pgc hunter]

Originally Posted by Hagar

All the winging in the world won't change the law. If it';s 110KM then you deserve to be booked at 111KM. Actual.

You cannot be serious

If the only car Peter could afford was an old beatup hilman capable of 100KM/hr max them this post wouldn't have even started.

I think he is referring to the flawed principle of slow speed limits on wide open freeways and ridiculous tolerences, rather than anything to do with the top speed of his ride.

Peter has certainly made some valid points here, and I'd definately rather have him in charge instead of the incompetent plonkers we suffer with now wrapping us in cottonwool and over regulating every single aspect of our lives big brother style

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

I live in Tassie. Terrible roads. In fact, the liberals are standing on a platform to upgrade the main road between Hobart and Launceston. Personally, it is such a shocking road I think it should be restricted to 80 km/h, but if I try and drive at that you can imagine what flak I would cop from the log trucks and everyone else in a hurry to commute. A speed limit all too often makes people assume that you should be driving at it, whereas in reality it is too often too fast for the conditions or the car. I'm happy my little car can't go above 80. The rest of you can lump it and learn to slow down. Your lack of planning is not my emergency.