ID - was 'censorship sux'

[Eardrum73]

If you look through the annals of history, you will realised that man has always had a need to belief in something greater than themselves.

Every civilisation from the ancient Egyptians, the Norse, ancient Greeks to the Incas in Peru, believed in gods, creators that shaped the world. Most of them had not one diety but a few! Each one to explain a particular phenomena or to cope with a particular aspect of their daily lives.

It is an inherrrant need in all humans (even in the modern world) to seek to explain the unexplainable world around them. To give meaning to something that is uncontrollable.
In the ancient days, the heavens and stars were seen as celestial powers that could influence their world. A solar eclipse probably meant the sacrifice of few hundread virgins in some cultures..... (I am exaggerating, but you get the picture)

What I am trying to say is that when faced with the unknown, ( and man fears the unknown) man will try to quantify in a manner that is comprehendable to the human mind.

ID follows from the need of man to believe in something greater than themselves, hence to me it is more a belief, a religion or philosophy instead of science.
But in todays where society is heading towards freedom of belief, making it a part of the science cacriculum in schools seems to be taking a step backwords in that sense.
What if I don't want to study ID because I believe in the philosophies of Nitchezt or I am simply athiest? Or I am of a religious belief that has conflicting views with ID? Why force it down people's throats?

If anything I believe ID should be classified as a philosophy, since it is neither completely in the region or science or religion.

My opinion in this is that it should be like an optional subject, just like any philosophy class in any school or univerisity.

[davidpretorius]

"everything in moderation"

I hate seeing what happens when religion, money, science & other human conditions get out of whack!

I watched a doco last night on the abc re the suicide bombers, and whilst I get so angry when they blow up innocent people, I felt I was made aware of how enshrined into their way of life, ie their parents and grand parents worship the "sacrifice" their children have made. I learnt something!!! Before that I was judging without knowing the full story. I still don't like what they do, but at least I am aware of how these problems and deep seated causes need to be addressed over a long time before it can be fixed.

There are no definates, no-one is perfect and there is no right or wrong, we must try and live together. As soon as we get judgemental and start categorising people, we lose out way.

I am not religious, but I like many of the 10 commandments and they make great sense. I like the more "Liberal" individual pursuits and goals in the workplace, but I don't like how I may now have ability to be able to bully a 16 yr into an agreement where it is obvious he or she has no experience in negotiating.

When it all gets to messy, I think of the old pope or the dalai lama (not sure on spelling). They are obvious results of religion (and the old pope had some different views to me about certain things) , but they seem to me to always have humility & utmost regard for humanity.

We shouldn't try and always complicate it!!

There are guys and girls on this forum with chequered pasts, we are not all computer programming physics boffins. And that is what makes it great. We share a common passion, but bring a different perspective, and we are all made richer because of it.

The one thing I want my 5 yr daughter to learn, is to be able to think for herself. Yes you are there to learn from a teacher, who may put a slant on things because the government says so or the school priest says so, but whatever she does, I want her to ask questions until she is satisfied she has an answer. If that teacher is too stupid to realise that this is "real learning", then watch out parent teacher night!!!!

Governments and policy makers come and go. they make stupid decisions sometimes, but the more i observe how it all works, the more "faith" i have in grass roots, face to face leaders within the community. They tend to be the ones that grow our communities & economy!!!. Don't worry what they push thru schools, there will always be a rebel teacher, one that clicks with your child!

Iceman had a dream for this site, we all followed. The way Bird grabbed hold of us fledgling imagers and captivated us at star camp was another example. He could have been an arrogant guy that simply puts out great pics, but no, he is a leader and educator. His images now mean a whole lot more because of that!

Our kids will be allright, give them the opportunity to be around natural leaders and thy flourish. Teach them to question politely if they don't agree or understand and respect others and they will be all right!

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Our duty to our children is to bring them up open minded enough to accept that others have different views. Learning about other peoples beliefs is integral to that.
How can they make intelligent decisions about their own faiths and beliefs ( religious or scientific) without this knowledge?

[Moonman (Michael)]

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/0511.../051107-6.html


Heres a free article from nature.com on what's happening in two US states Kansas and Pennsylvaina.

I think all creation stories whether believed literally or not were never intended to be tested scientifically by those who wrote them including God him/herself if you believe this to be the case.

It could be argued that creation pseudo sciences are misleading as they use the language of science to promote what is a purely theological perspective and interpretation as scientific fact.

I have no problem with ID in the sense that I believe there is a creator. But I do have a problem when this becomes confused with science and misrepresented missing the whole point of these texts.

The biblical creation story was written down during the Babylonian Captivity as an attempt to preserve culture and traditions and even, if you look at the historical context, to assert a natural view of creation in the face of a culture that interpreted the sun, moon and stars as gods and demons.

At the very least it is a step in evolution of thought on the matter but never intended to be dragged through a dogmatic argument over our origins.

Food for thought. I try not to get too bogged down with this stuff as in church circles it becomes an extremely devisive issue.

I have no problem seeing evolution and big bang theories as a viable process to explain how we got here but we do have to show a little caution as new data and ideas don't always fit the generally accepted models. So it pays to keep an open mind and to be sensitve to others when we discuss these issues.

I hope this adds well to the discussion.

[netwolf]

I agree with your Bert. I think that it boils down to fear, fear that belifs maybe be discarded for Science. I think that if you truely belive in something then no amount of Science will disuade you. What we need to chidren is to be open minded and that there is greater truths to be learned by opening ourselves to appreciate diversity. To walk in another persons shoes, will teach you how to respect his view of the world. So to enforce a belif as Science is meaningless fear.

Many of the evils in our world have little to do with belifs or science, they have more to do with greed and power. Educatators need to be vigilant that they are not falling prey to the would be power brookers.

I dont know if any of you watched that movie with Robin Williams called Patch Adams. The scene were the mad proffeseor in the hospital asks Robin how many fingers do you see. I think this scene shows the power of human imagination is limetless, why limit it by Science or Faith. Small children playing never distinguish between race religion and crede. It is the adults around them that shape there views and create the distinctions. Teachers are not given anywhere near the respect they deserve and it is they who must protect our kids fron any one sided influences.

Regards
Netwolf.

[fringe_dweller]

Thanks Slice I was fairly confident that the IIS forum was chockers full of smart, tolerant, intelligent people who could calmly and rationaly discuss an issue without resorting to emotional responses to get their point across, even with potentially explosive matters

I have enjoyed every response so far - they all have very good points - isnt free speech a great thing!

Netwolf, beautiful and eloquent responses - I found them very interesting indeed, thanks for sharing an insight from a different perspective

Bert, we agree on a lot of things there, I love that ant's & TV ananolgy - that cracked me up so true! and yes the CB's taught me a healthy respect for authority too, but i just missed out on latin - they had just stopped the mass being celebrated in Latin when i was very young - thank goodness

Eardrum, i think I have heard fear is the number one motivating driving emotion in Humans - you can find it at the root of many things - even in this debate!

David, I am in agreeance with you totally, well said mate

jjjnettie, agreed

I would of thought that the children of Christian parents would of received plenty of information on their religion from the Parents themselves and from the church they attend - why the need for the additional information? If we are going to be openminded why stop at the views of one particular small branch of the christian faith - we should maybe include the Aboriginals Dreamtime version of creation in Science classes as science as well? after all shouldnt their heritage be respected too?
I am just afraid that this was going to be some sort of indoctrination process - after all the jesuits used to say 'Give me a child till the age of seven and they would be a catholic forever" or something along those lines - ie brainwashing - I think you get plenty of opportunities in early adulthood and way beyond to examine all the possible paths in life and make better informed decisions as a result perhaps - why the rush?

Michael, scary hey! I notice cosmology was one of the subjects removed from the school curriculum in the 1999 case - if anyone thinks this subject is going to go away from the world - they had better think again - these people are on a mission - and they dont give up easy yes dogma is no substitute for Science and never will be

Its extremely surprising to me in the 21st century that we are forced to defend things that i would of never of thought we would have to defend when i was younger - goes to show you cant take anything for granted in this great new progressive century - vigilance is a neccesary constant

[rumples riot]

hmmm, I think that we are being made to return to the 1950s. In reality we have never lived in a free and open society, its all an illusion to keep the masses quiet. Religion serves this purpose as well. Science does this also to some degree. Can anyone of us really prove any scientific theory? Can anyone prove that god does or does not exist? Both I believe have an emphatic no attached to them.

Funny, the introduction of oppressive legislation to hold "terrorists" or have powers that a draconian, New legislation to control Unions and workers and now teach the kiddies ID theory. Just like going back to the 50's. Seems that is a pretty fair indication of where our society is headed. The people that Australians voted for, have decided that we need to feel safe and warm and that a return to these values are necessary. That's the way forward. So much for science. Knowledge is power; no knowedge is now dangerous!!!

I tend to agree that the fossil record has many problems, that said though, even if you say the earth is 6000 years old, how did the fossils get there and why are there no fossils of modern man in amongst the Dinosaurs or Ediacrean (spelling ?) fossils? I think both the evolutionary arguments and the creationist arguments have loads of holes in them. No one theory will stand up to heavy scrutiny. There is no proof definitively either way. Religion is irrational, science is pragmatic. Nothing is certain.

Maybe science like religion is just another form of brain washing. Maybe non of our theories are really correct, after all; we can't even travel frequently to the moon, much less the stars, how are we to know what is real and what is unreal. Its all subjective. Perhaps in 5000 years we will be looked upon as quaint neanderthals with a lust for power and little understanding of the real universe. Much less what is actually going on.

Hmmmmm. What is so bad about teaching ID theory? Well nothing really, Both science and religion are largely unproven in my mind, I can't say catagorically that all science is correct, theories change, Gods change. Funny if we were completely wrong about most things!!!!

[gaa_ian (Ian)]

Having recently watched the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy movie
The Quote by "Slardy Bardfast" the creator of the "Fiords" in Norway in the Movie is appropiate:
"I would much rather be happy .... than Right"

Having recently attended an ID lecture by one of the Authors of "Creation" magazine based in Brisbane.
I questioned the presentor on his assertions that his "evidence" that the earth was a mere 10,000 yo, he was forced to qadmit that his evidence was really a matter of faith in what is written in the Bible, when taken in a literal & not a metaphorical sense.
Faith I have no problem with, I consider myself a Christian.
Faith Masqerading as Science, that is another matter, & not something I would want my kids to be taught as "Fact".
Ask questions and keep asking questions, that is the key to understanding
Both intellectually & spiritually !

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Geez this thread has obviously touched on some very difficult topics. Just have a look at the lengths of the posts here compared to most other threads. So I'll keep this brief (and preachy ): Blind faith in what one's parents and peers are telling them belongs in childhood. Thinking for oneself and encouraging others to do the same is a healthy way to be.

[Stu]

I'm glad this thread wasn't canned.

Before I add my view I'd like to say that my wife is Christian and I am as far from religious as you can get. I initially refused to get married in a church. We are both very stubbon and it quickly became clear that we were going to have a stalemate that could stop us getting married if we didn't agree on where we would get married.

Then I woke up... (No I didn't turn born-again ) and thought that one day we are all going to die and the people who remember us will all die and the planet will get swalled by our big red giant main sequence star and even if we have left the planet we wil not survive the big crunch or big rip or big chill anyway so who cares what type of building I get married in. Problem solved. Now I'm in the process of living happly ever after...

Science and religion can get along nicely.

Having said that...ID in science classes is teaching a blatent lie. I will never let my kids be taught it in the context of science classes. But they can select in as "an optional subject, just like any philosophy" -> Thanks Eardrum73.

[netwolf]

Did we not recently go to war with a nation that practiced, strict relgious education and draconian laws. I wonder who won....

rumples, i did not say it was 6000 years old. I dont know how old the earth is. And Scientifcally how to we validate the age, as none of us where there. We can only theorise on that.

Regards

[ving (David)]

good olde creationists vs evolutionists...
I am not an expert in either but my opinion is that I have not seen or heard enough evidence on either side to substantiate a claim that either side is right or wrong.
Astrophysics has given us insight into the movement of planets and some idea of how the universe works and was created... but from what i see alot of it is guesses based on what is currently happening. no one was actually around to experience how the universe was created.

so much of this science is educated guess work as far as i can see...
creation? "click!" tadaaaa! we have a universe... er... I dont know bout that either.

so there you go, my opinion is that i dont have one

[davidpretorius]

whoever or wherever they came from, I like looking at stars!!!!

[netwolf]

Well there is always the Stargate theory, we are not from this world... I suppose that fits in well from the exodus of eden... lol. Maybe we evolved some place else.. Maybe the earth was moved accros the universe by the Borg... and maybe i need more coffee or not.. wait its coming to me know.. we are not on the original earth... we are the 12 tribes for the 12 constelations who left earth far behind... and only the Battlestar Galactica can get us home...


Dave, I am with you lets get back to them stars.. If only the clouds would leave.. If only i can get enought time from work to do my centre spoting... if only...

[fringe_dweller]

I am afraid even a dummy like me can see the surrounding countryside that I live in isnt eroding and changing at a rate that would fit a 6-10 000 year time frame I dont think you have to be einstein to work that bit out! or the rate at which galaxies ect are evolving during our lifetime while viewing them through our telescopes! many, many simple examples like that. rate at which a glacier moves ect. none of these things fit a 6-10 000 year frame rate. And beleive me that is fundamental to this theory - remember many movements and politics rely on the general apathy and non involvement and ignorance to get their agenda's progressing - the nazi's for instance - I wonder if the victims of the Holacaust thought life was just a dream?.

I also think it is mischevious, to say the least, that a belief held dear by all of ~6% of all Christians masquerading as fact is given MASSIVE reverent and unquestioning mainstream media coverage over a sustained period of time, and is even seriously considered by our government representatives at the highest level, as replacement and or alternative to science for all Aussies, non-christians everybody, the lot. And on top of that if you question and examine it, you are anti-God and religion - that is outrageous! how conveniant!
Even a dummy like me knows that science is fully transparent, built slowly on facts tested over and over, and science thrives and invites and indeed demands that you question and question hard everything contained in it - thats how it got were it is today - lets look at this alternative to science - I think dogma is supposed to be just accepted and accepted unquestionably..that is called faith

to harp on about my experience again - the brand of religon I know best was very wary of the old testament and indeed almost embaressed of it - they just glossed over it -they seemed to think it was slightly unhealthy and morbid to get too hung up on it and take it all literally - they were totally different when it came to the new testament - from Jesus onwards and the gospels was their big focus - and quite rightfully.
My main concern re this theory was not wether god exists or doesnt, but how this seriously proposed Theory related to a subject i am fond of and what were the impications for cosmology, astronomy? I cannot find any information on the web from the proponents of this theory that tells me how the 6-10 000 year time frame fits in with cosmology - does that make the universe the same age - I assume it does? can anyone tell me? TIA

[fringe_dweller]

also i dont see scientists campaigning hard to have Darwin's theory of evolution added to the Bible and have it preached in sunday school? maybe they should? that would be only fair. I wonder if Darwin will have to change its name now? maybe to Howardtown or something?

[davidpretorius]

Good point Kearn,

another one:

I listen to news radio and it transmits the parliament. Why in this day and age must we say something wimiliar to the lords prayer to open daily proceedings. Hate to think what any muslims and buddhists or athiests are meant to do during this time when the are in parliament??

It seems to me to make it a complete waste of time. Which is a shame. Why not a statement towards humanity and serving the australian people.

................Then the cynic in me who does like lots of common sense religious stuff, cracks up laughing as these politicians start scrapping and arguing like a 3 yr olds before all this nice introductions have even finifhed!!!

[fringe_dweller]

Thanks! its true David - Church and State should be a very seperate as they say

I hate to say it - it is some of the most unchristianlike behaviour I have ever seen
I know christians arent perfect, just forgiven - as the bumper sticker goes
it seems like religions are like football clubs you barrack for now - your either with us or against us type of thing

[bonox]

<hr> This is an e-mail I received from a friend so it must be all true with very good points.


CC:

* DOVER SCHOOL BOARD (PENNSYLVANIA)
* OHIO STATE SCHOOL BOARD
* RIO RANCHO SCHOOL BOARD (NEW MEXICO)
* GRANTSBURG SCHOOL BOARD (WISCONSIN)
* COBB COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD(GEORGIA)
* SHELBY COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD(TENNESSEE)
* CHARLES COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD(MARYLAND)
* NAPERVILLE SCHOOL BOARD(ILLINOIS)
* DARBY SCHOOL BOARD (MONTANA)
* BLUFFTON-HARRISON SCHOOL BOARD (INDIANA)

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

Sincerely Yours,

Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.
P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.
http://www.venganza.org/him2.jpg

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Flying Spaghetti Monster! I'm convinced and converted!