hi, I read that there is a process to dispose used FeCL and should not be poured down drains. how should it be disposed?
can the inkjet papers recommended be used in most or all laser printers? any risk of fuser damage?
thanks
I used standard overhead projector clear paper in a HP 5p laser. It worked well but I haven't been able to repeat the process with my current minolta laser. The clear paper jams.
Ferric chloride is awful 40 years ago it just went down the drain but you can't do that now. We only had a septic system and a pump out so I have no idea where it ended up.
To replenish the solution with some acid every now and then and allow air-contact. There is no need to get rid of the copper, in fact, the copper in solution helps etching the PCB. Finally, you hardly won't need any additional FeCl3. The only thing used up is acid.
Initially the iron(III) acts as oxidiser, but later on, the copper (II) in solution also acts as oxidiser. The resulting copper (I) compounds are VERY easily oxidised by oxygen from the air. So, essentially, oxygen from the air is your free oxidiser. The only non-free compound (after the initial FeCl3) is the acid HCl.
Ive been wondering about Eagle heard good things about it. Im struggling with NIs Ultiboard 10, not very user friendly (althought the Multisim simulator is pretty cool, not that I use it much). Have you compared Eagle with anything else?.
Hi Fred.
Yeah Eagle PCB is VERY easy to use but I really don't like it's auto-routing. I autoroute to get an idea of where to lay tracks then lay them manually. I find I can do a better job..or maybe I'm dreamin!
It's not that it auto-routes incorrectly it's just not as neat as I'd like it. I'm sure if I was better at it I could get it to do a better job.
I am mucking around with POV Ray and 3D PCB images from eagle ATM.
Eagle now has a "SPICE sim" plug-in but I haven't tried it.
Yeah Eagle PCB is VERY easy to use but I really don't like it's auto-routing. I autoroute to get an idea of where to lay tracks then lay them manually. I find I can do a better job..or maybe I'm dreamin!
It's not that it auto-routes incorrectly it's just not as neat as I'd like it. I'm sure if I was better at it I could get it to do a better job.
I am mucking around with POV Ray and 3D PCB images from eagle ATM.
Eagle now has a "SPICE sim" plug-in but I haven't tried it.
Autorouter ??? What is that?
Ok, now back to being serious again Of course I know what autorouter is...
But, for my 35+ years of working in industry, and designing most of my printed circuits boards myself (including my time at NEC Australia as senior RF engineer), I NEVER used autorouter.
Partly this is because RF design is very specific and autorouter simply can't cope with what is needed to be done.. but even in less demanding layput designs, it is always inadequate.. So I sometimes wonder why software companies bother to include it in their packages in a first place..
Yeah Eagle PCB is VERY easy to use but I really don't like it's auto-routing. I autoroute to get an idea of where to lay tracks then lay them manually. I find I can do a better job..or maybe I'm dreamin!
It's not that it auto-routes incorrectly it's just not as neat as I'd like it. I'm sure if I was better at it I could get it to do a better job.
I am mucking around with POV Ray and 3D PCB images from eagle ATM.
Eagle now has a "SPICE sim" plug-in but I haven't tried it.
OK, thats good, ill give it a spin, its just im wary of time consuming learning curves for nothing.
Yes, the NIs autoroute is not much cop either and very complicted to set up (well, its OK for digital, but not analog or mixed). What is nice though, is the moving rats nest telling you where to go and its "follow the clicks" manual routing so you cant make a mistake, does eagle have that?.
the etching kit from jaycar uses sodium persulphate. have to research which is better or easier to dispose of.
I found the autorouter inadequate as well. i guess if you lay out the components with a pencil and paper, you'll get an idea of what the optimum paths are, and where jumpers will be required if you want to stick to single sided instead of doublesided.
can standard drill presses be used to drill the holes with the right bits?
Last edited by alistairsam; 26-08-2010 at 04:35 PM.
Ammonium persulphate is a lot less nasty to use clean up. I use my wife's little tray warmer (it's a single element flat heater tray with low watts) to keep the solution at around 60 degrees C to 70 C and use a shallow glass pyrex dish for the solution.
I use around 70 degrees C water to mix the persulphate and the heater to keep it at temp. If you do this it will etch real quick!
She's thrilled about me doing this...
Anyway Home drill presses are too slow in rpm they "dig in" with the bits and the chucks generally will not hold small bits. Generally speaking PCBs are drilled at very high rpm...like 10K rpm plus. Here's an idea on how to make a cheapy or here's an alternate. You can always pin vice and drill ...but I always end up with blisters on my hand.
thanks. is the constant heating of the solution required, or will water heated to 70 C do? I read an article where he kept the container with the 70C water in an insulated box
thanks. is the constant heating of the solution required, or will water heated to 70 C do? I read an article where he kept the container with the 70C water in an insulated box
You will get away with just a solution that starts at 70degrees C. It will etch fine just agitate the PCB with a stick.
I pre-drill a hole (on the PCB) and loop stainless wire thru it so I can gently sluice the PCB/solution.
Generally speaking PCBs are drilled at very high rpm...like 10K rpm plus. Here's an idea on how to make a cheapy or here's an alternate. You can always pin vice and drill ...but I always end up with blisters on my hand.
80k to 120k actually, and the proper bits are special, and ultra brittle, and they break very easily in a drill press (as I found out, many times ). Ordinary bits blunt very quicky drilling fiberglass for some reason, something to do with drilling glass , one bit per board, if yr lucky .
LOL yes but the garage is FULL of electronic gear LOL
No really , I only use the kitchen when it is freezing cold (like today) too cold in the garage!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinetic
You poor, poor unfortunate sods who have to use the kitchen....use the
shed mate...set up a good electronics bench with running water
and do it all under your own terms! Talk about a bunch of wimps!
Just don't let her see the Tupperware collection you have accumulated
out there.
hi
anyone tried double sided PCB's, are they any harder?
for the through hole links, I was thinking of using a component lead soldered both sides.
i've ordered a double sided pcb and amm. persulphate, but a bit apprehensive. double sided reduces the size a lot. one issue would be alignment on both sides, but should be easy enough with corner markings on top and bottom layers.
have attached my manual routing single sided design and the autorouted double sided design.
is amm persulphate flammable? is it safe to use a stainless steel container on a portable stove outside to keep the water at 70C?
found a neat article here as well.
I was looking for toner transfer paper as I did'nt want to risk using inkjet paper on the office laser, their price for the toner transfer paper meant for laser printers looks reasonable compared to others.
there are glossy papers for laser printers as well, but were a bit expensive.
I've started a few tests with PCB's and am having reasonable success, thanks to steve for this thread and inspiration.
I had a few tips that I thought I might share.
I used Ammonium persulphate as the etchant, very easy to use and non messy. As I dont have a source of constant heat or a bubble agitator, I used the following method.
boil water in a normal kettle to boiling, let it cool for about 5 to 10 mins.
have two baths, one big and one small. the pcb and etchant will be in the smaller bath and kept in the bigger one which has just hot water, helps keep the smaller bath warm. I used a plastic ice cream container as the smaller bath.
for agitation, I used a paintbrush to just lightly go over the pcb constantly and this speeds up the etching. and if the water cooled, just add a bit more persulphate and bit more hot water.
with this, I was able to etch a double sided pcb in 12 mins, single sided in around 8.
for drilling holes, don't fill the via in the pcb design software and specify the hole size in the software.
I got a pack of 0.8mm pcb drill bits from rsonline that have 2.5 mm shanks. so it fits in any drill or drill press. I tested using my standard drill press at 1500 rpm and it drilled through very easily as it has to drill through just the pcb board and not copper. i've drilled over 150 holes with just one bit.
I also used the pulsarfx pro paper, $17 as its laser safe and has a delrin coating. so once transferred, put it in cold water for 1 minute and the backing just lifts off without any residue or need for cleaning.
I found that the toner adheres better when left to cool down and then immersed in cold water rather than plunging it when its hot. again, this could be related to this paper. so you'd have to experiment.
Using the tip of the iron technique as steve mentioned in this thread was very effective.
also, in laser printers, for this paper, I set the paper settings on the printer to "cardstock". reason is that at this setting, the fuser temperature is substantially raised and amount of toner dispersed is higher. so better tracks.
just made this pcb. designed with design-spark, toner transfer method with pulsarpro fx paper, ammonium persulphate etchant.
was able to drill 1mm holes with a std 1mm bit for the connectors and 0.8mm holes with the bits from rs-online on a std drill press.
That's a very well done PCB Alistaire, nice & clean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alistairsam
just made this pcb. designed with design-spark, toner transfer method with pulsarpro fx paper, ammonium persulphate etchant.
was able to drill 1mm holes with a std 1mm bit for the connectors and 0.8mm holes with the bits from rs-online on a std drill press.
An ideal transfer medium that has no problems with laser printers is a product called Herculene. Its basically a drafting film, mat on the side you print on gloss on the other. Just about all my designs are surface mount and I regularly make prototypes with track sizes at 12mil and similar size clearances with no problems. I use positive photo resist type PCB's and also have also found Ammonium persulphate to be the friendliest etchant. When I discard it I pour it on unwanted grass around posts etc ... works better than round up !!!
Of course I know what autorouter is... 
). Ordinary bits blunt very quicky drilling fiberglass for some reason, something to do with drilling glass 
