The thing that amazes me is that there are all of these regulations in vic regarding Hand held laser pointers over 1mW but there doesn't seam to be anything about laser light shows DJ's use at all, and they come in varieties up to around 40mW. All they say is that qualified people should use them, nothing about licenses or permits.
Also I emailed the Vic police some time ago regarding mounting a laser pointer in a box with a larger power source or plug pack. They informed me that if the devices was originally designed to be hand held then it would still be prohibited. So I would be very cautious of anyone telling you that if you permanently mount it on the telescope it would be ok.
If this is so, then the solution to the problem might be the following:
- dismantle the laser and remove laser module and power regulator (if there is one, it will be inside more expensive models)
- mount everything in the enclosure permanently fixed to a telescope
- throw away the original, hand held enclosure
or, purchase the laser module only, without enclosure.
This way, you are effectively designing your own laser for permanent mount, and presumably you would satisfy the law.. or would you?
Well, believe it or not, I just got a call from the officer who sent me the email to talk to me and reassure me the legitimacy of his correspondence.
His name was Tristan Weston and his number is 03 9536 2666.
He said that I could put his contact details here and if anyone had any queries or concerns that they could contact him. They actually found ice in space, I hadn't mentioned it, and he even read this thread... So before you start calling blue murder and big brother, he was actually a very reasonable guy. He explained that he is a member of the Victorian police working in a joint AFP task force out of Melbourne Airport and he explained that there is a very legitimate reason for their operation. HE explained he specifically didn't use a bureaucratic tone in his email to me because he was trying to avoid sounding too persecuting. He realises we have no intention for using the laser in a criminal way but he explained that the majority of these hand held lasers are not used for any legitimate purpose and in the wrong hands can be very dangerous. He said he has spoken to the Chinese seller who sold me my laser pointer, and that he will be calling Bintel and others...
The most interesting part tho is he explained that after gathering an understanding of the purpose we use the laser pointer for, he was willing to contact the appropriate government authorities and attempt to have the act amended to specifically exclude lasers which have been permanently mounted to a telescope! Which would be great.. So I'll post again if the situation develops.
I'm really not interested in continuing an argument here about whether this is right or fair, so if you are just going to argue, please don't bother.
I'm really not interested in continuing an argument here about whether this is right or fair, so if you are just going to argue, please don't bother.
Well said.
If that's the law, that's the law. Let's just hope the gentleman concerned can help us legitimate users continue to teach the sky using the laser mounted on our scopes.
It will be nice to finally get the 'actual' regulations.
Let's just hope the gentleman concerned can help us legitimate users continue to teach the sky using the laser mounted on our scopes.
Hopefully the law can be amended so that people clearly in the act of pointing out objects in the night sky ( handheld) are free to do so and perhaps in the possesion of a properly mounted laser bracket on their telescope.
Well, it is not only amateur astronomers who could be (and are, without them being aware of the situation) affected by this legislation.
There is a huge number of tools distributed by Bunnings, that have lasers mounted permanently as a vital part that ensures the correct and precise operation of that tool.... many of them are above the 1mW limit.
And all those gadgets are portable and hand-held.
It will be interesting to see how the situation will develop in the future....
[snip]
Still it's the IR Lasers that are more dangerous as they do not invoke a blink reaction...aka that's why the military use near IR Lasers.... also because of less atmospheric attenuation at those wave lengths.
Yes, the infrared ones can be a bit dangerous. I worked for 25 years in the Telstra Research Labs and we had a carbon dioxide (infrared laser) with an output of 600W, no I didn't forget the "m", (peak pulse power was about 1.2kW, thats 1,200,000mW) and that little sucker could cut through 3mm steel like butter, perspex was even more fun! We even used it at times for "real" work! I still have my name burnt into a piece of wood with it. I don't think it would be much use for pointing out stars though, being invisible. But if a plane flew overhead, it would probably just got straight through and cut the wing off
Well, 600W is still "only" 600W average, this is not enough to cut the aluminium sheet wing off, certainly not with speed of >200km/h (unless you have good tracking)
But it could sure damage something, if it hits some vital parts, like hydraulics pipes or persplex window... not to mention people or their eyes.
Well the idea of a "death ray" sounds good but in practice atmospheric and specular diffusion attenuate the beams a bucket load. All cutting Lasers are focused beams where as high powered tight beam Lasers ionise the air and burn floating particles which interfere with the beam itself causing it to gradually attenuate and beam spread.
Still I'd luv a 1.2Kw CO 2 Laser to get get that stray Cat that keeps c@%7)/ on our door step...insert evil laugh!
But it boils down to this, if they can get a tight beam from a green Laser (500nm) 5mw to shine 12,000 ft plus these days I'm not surprised that the Law is intervening. I see that IR laser diodes are used to pump the Laser crystal rods in some Lasers. No wonder they are so powerful and of course the IR Laser diode pump is not a desirable piece of kit to play with. One shot and you'll never see properly again....worse case scenario.
I'd severely doubt that the Laws will be amended to Preclude Astronomy Lasers from the "Acts" power limits. This would take an investigation by a scientific research Lab (such as AWADI or the QLD Uni optics Lab), which of course, needs to be paid for.
I had previously asked a Senior Sargent with whom I work to check up on the issue here in Queensland. I spoke to him today and he confirmed that laser pointers are NOT an issue in Queensland.
However chaps, I would have to point out that some of the comments above are probably in poor taste in this day and age. While I know they are made in jest, given the fact that our Victorian cousins would like to have the Act amended, and it is a known fact that at least one member of the Victorian Constabulary has been reading this thread, I would suggest that we tone down on some of the comments. Its just like joking about bombs and planes - you don't do it any more! Just my 2 cents.
and it is a known fact that at least one member of the Victorian Constabulary has been reading this thread, I would suggest that we tone down on some of the comments.
I see iceinspace is advertising Wicked Lasers...why muck around with 10 and 20mW when you can buy a 300mW direct from them??!!
I hope they don't start shutting down websites advertising such illegal weapons.
I see iceinspace is advertising Wicked Lasers...why muck around with 10 and 20mW when you can buy a 300mW direct from them??!!
I hope they don't start shutting down websites advertising such illegal weapons.
Was it in a google ad?
I doubt sites can or would be held responsible for what the google ad comes up with. The laser ad only would've only come up because they're being talked about in this thread
Well, 600W is still "only" 600W average, this is not enough to cut the aluminium sheet wing off, certainly not with speed of >200km/h (unless you have good tracking)
But it could sure damage something, if it hits some vital parts, like hydraulics pipes or persplex window... not to mention people or their eyes.
Interesting, the laser could slice through 3mm steel (admittedly through a lens and with oxygen to get it all going) but it would not cut through alfoil! Steel is something like 60% reflective and gets enough heat in to get started whilst ali is more like 99% preventing the stuff from getting going. Apparently a couple more kW and it would melt and the reflectivity dropped significantly...then you could cut it.
We were working with this laser in the days of "Star Wars" development and we saw this shot of a laser being fired at a mock up spy satellite sitting a few metres away. After several seconds the thing "exploded", but they failed to point out that the thing had several hundred kg of weight sitting on top of it, was held down with "bungi ropes", the beam was focused and was right next to it...minor point I guess in their case. In our case if the beam was not focused, it barely scorched paper. Getting it to travel through several km of air and being able to do anything to a moving target was thought to be a huge joke.
The whole star wars thing is best sumarised by a quote from a documentary I saw back then, I can't remember the exact figures, but the story goes something like this.
Politician who gives the nod for more money sees demonstration and is impressed.
Scientist showing demo says "and that is with just 10 to the power of 10 watts per square mm, to get a real satellite in orbit we need 10 to the power of 20 watts."
Politician "So we are half way there already!"
Scientist, rubbing hands
Wish I could be that dumb and get paid that much money to give the ok to someone so much smarter.
Interesting, the laser could slice through 3mm steel (admittedly through a lens and with oxygen to get it all going) but it would not cut through alfoil! Steel is something like 60% reflective and gets enough heat in to get started whilst ali is more like 99% preventing the stuff from getting going. Apparently a couple more kW and it would melt and the reflectivity dropped significantly...then you could cut it.
This is not a surprise... In case of cutting though steel the oxygen is crucial. Cutting of steel with acetilene flame works only because there is excess of oxygen supply so steel is actually burning and this is where the required heat energy is coming from, not from the flame itself.
Aluminium has much better reflectivity, but also much better thermal conductivity, so it cools down more rapidly. Also, there is always that very thin and dense layer of oxide on aluminium surface that prevents further oxidation...
Hi Mike, Yeah the ad is in with this thread. I went to a different one and hey presto different ads! As a note we haven't had any requests from the AFP to stop selling these items at Bintel yet.
A little off track but I was pondering the reason why the CO2 would cut steel but not aluminium? I've cut paper and cardboard with a CO2 but never tried metal as it might reflect somewhere unwanted. Anyway.
The Laser works by coherent light beam which adds energy to the metal (things it hits) by the electrons absorbing the wave (and presumably parts of the nucleus of the atom) which raises it to ionisation levels...a simple Bohr atom model here. With so much energy there is ionisation..breaking atomic bonds...aka it cuts the metal.
Now Aluminium and steel can be described as a ionic lattice with a sea of de-localised electrons (which give the metal lustre). Steel is an iron/carbon lattice alloy, aluminium is usually alloyed with manganese.
Aluminium is a group 13 element with more core charge (more electronegative element) but a lower melting point than steel. But, aluminium also has a much larger ionisation energy than Steel. The beam wave length cannot promote or excite an Aluminium electron to ionise easily. So I'm assuming that the sea of de localised electrons (ionic bond) and ionisation energy required has something to so with the fact the Laser wouldn't cut Aluminium.
So the Aluminium doesn't really reflect the beam. The Beam cannot ionise the atoms electrons to free them...aka make a cut.
Does that make any sense? Anyone here knowledgeable on atomic models? Ionisation energy of elements?
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