The mind boggles

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Well put.
Gun ownership is higher now than it was in 1990, yet the gun crime rate is far lower, and almost exclusively with firearms that have never been legal.

That's it. If scumbags want a means to perform in their trade (to impose, intimidate, or kill), they will get it. If a gun can't be bought over the counter, it will be bought under the counter. If not bought, it gets stolen. If it can't be stolen, it will home manufactured. If they can't make a gun, they use a knife, or imaginatively (though sadly), hire a lorry (even cheaper when you don't take out insurance...)

[LewisM]

More murders in human history have been perpetrated by fists, sticks and rocks than firearms and will continue that way until we wipe ourselves out.

It's not the weapon, it's the person behind the weapon.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 24.5%... but that doesn't tell the whole story. That figure fails to acknowledge the 'government owned' assault rifle

That's it. An SG-550 in every bedroom of any serving member of the Swiss Army/Reserves. A people who seem to know how to behave amongst each other - civilised one could say.

Originally Posted by clive milne

Ergo... Japan with 160x less guns per capita, has almost 150% higher suicide rate. (compared to the US)

Been to Japan 11 or so times. Everything has rubber edges and fences on high spaces. They compete with South Korea for the suicide high score. They compete with the whole world for productive output, and collectively it drives them crazy. Again, mental health.

Originally Posted by Kal

and theres proven statistics out there that show that the suicide rate is higher in rural Australia because of the access to guns.

Suicide method differs most greatly by gender. There is a big difference between suicide attempt, and suicide completion. Both male, and female suicide attempts are roughly equal in number. However males chose methods which are faster acting, and more affective in achieving death (Gun, burning, hanging). This compares to females, who typically choose drug overdose, poison, bleeding out, ect, which takes time (and thus opens opportunity for rescue, remorse, etc).

The end result is that males appear to have a "higher" suicide rate. Male, rural workers have the amongst the highest suicide completion rate, due to social isolation (less supervision), and greater access to fast acting means (farm machinery, fuels, and as you indicated, guns). Another high ranker in suicide completion are indigenous males outside of major cities. Interestingly, they have exceptionally low rates of firearm licences.

Source: Words from an ex-director of Beyond Blue, who delivers insightful lectures where I work. He hates guns as much as anyone here, but concedes removing them alone will solve little.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by LewisM

I used to have 127 firearms at one point of bachelorhood...
...but my wife cured me of this ailment early on...

Very impressive. I had 1/10th that before marriage (yes 12.7 - A heavy barrel and reciever for a 30/338, but no stock or trigger).

My stainless Kimber 1911 and 2x .44 Vaqueros were sold to pay for the wedding. It was a tough decision

Now my collection is *mostly* fudd guns, rescued from the police crusher from 2 deceased estates

[xelasnave]

Let folk keep all the guns they want and admire them collect them clean them and hang them on their wall if their facination is with guns... but take away all the ammunition☺ ..lets see criminals make ammunition☺

We live in a democracy so lets put it to a vote.

Should guns be banned...yes ? no?

The folk who want them banned presumably will out weigh those who dont so ban them...but count the votes first.

And so the cry will go out "I want my gun" well sorry the community does not want guns and the logic for possesion is irrelevant.

And folk if they want to kill with a gun will find it that much harder...some of the folk I know who suicided would have been so drunk only a gun could have been used cause they wouldnt be able to tie a knot in a rope or stand on a chair to hang themselves and probably would wake in the morning and sober and see things differently.

Buy an illegal gun after they are banned.???..sure if you could afford the high black market prices and lets face it supply and demand and penalty risk would make them harder to buy and more expensive and then if caught with one make it very difficult for such a charge to be avoided.

Sure criminals etc can use other means well ban guns and let them find other ways ... but suicide gun would at least go down and certainly I know five people who when sober would have carried on.

Target practice gone?

I think we could manage somehow.Take up darts.

Hunting ..get over it and find a butcher who sells meat maybe.

However the community at large does not want them so ban them it is that simple.
Alex

[Russj (Russ)]

Perhaps this bloke has the answer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrFVtmRXrw

[julianh72 (Julian)]

Originally Posted by AndyG

Higher death rate for guns only you mean? Their murder rate is much higher... Hell, London recently celebrated taking that accolade from New York. Except scumbags switched to knives to achieve it. Trouble is, knives can be hidden in plain sight. What now?

Oh, please! Talk about cherry-picking data!

London happened to have two consecutive bad months for murder statistics, and the lunatic fringe start crowing that New York is safer than London.

Please take a look at the statistics and tell me if you still believe it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43628494

[LewisM]

I think the horse has been flogged and is now ready for the glue factory.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by LewisM

I think the horse has been flogged and is now ready for the glue factory.

There is life in him yet

What I really think is funny as in strange is that a blow pipe is illegal and indeed a cross bow but rifles and shot guns are ok.

I do like guns I admit.
I shot skeet and trap which was satisfying.
One gains a sence of power knowing that you can shoot stuff traveling so fast ... I had some very expensive shot guns and rifles and back then I thought gun ownership was a good thing...now I dont.

And whats going on in Sydney there has not been a drive by shooting for a while now.

Hopefully anyone caught doing a drive by gets the terrorist treatment and given really lengthy good behaviour bonds..that will fix them.
Alex

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Only when you cherry pick the data points...

Here's two that disprove the assertion that there is a causative link:

Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 24.5%... but that doesn't tell the whole story. That figure fails to acknowledge the 'government owned' assault rifle to be found in pretty much every home in the country. Ergo: anyone who wants access to a high powered automatic(?) weapon, has access to one.
Homicide rate in Switzerland: 0.21 per 100,000 people.

USA... effectively the same access to firearms (as Switzerland)
Homicide rate in USA: 4.62 per 100,000 people.

So we have a 2300% higher homicide rate in the US with effectively the same access to firearms. (as Switzerland).

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Yes, you can argue that point. i will counter argue - using your logic, any country that wants nukes can have them. I mean, lots of countries having nukes doesn't mean it's dangerous...

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

This.

The US has states larger than Australia. Limit the stories just to what comes out of Florida or California etc., and you're on a similar level.

Umm no. It doesn't. Geography fail 101. Please repeat that class

Originally Posted by astroron

Obviously you were very poor at geography at school ,and it seems it has not improve since you left school

Alaska
The Largest States in the U.S. by Area
Rank State Area (in square miles)
1 Alaska 663,267.26
2 Texas 268,580.82
3 California 163,695.57
4 Montana 147,042.40

7.692 million km²
If you meant in population,then say so.

lol Ron, agreed!

Originally Posted by AndyG

Classic matra of the "grabbers". Not original, please try harder.



"Think of the chillunz" - Matra #2. I almost didn't notice it. Like all parents, I do think of people. Please, read on.



Higher death rate for guns only you mean? Their murder rate is much higher... Hell, London recently celebrated taking that accolade from New York. Except scumbags switched to knives to achieve it. Trouble is, knives can be hidden in plain sight. What now?



Good, now we're getting somewhere. Anything can be a murder weapon. You could kill me with a 30mm ABC skygazing record refractor, - if you shove it far enough up my nose... So what we are seeing here is the difference between the tool, and the intention. The intention comes from the user (not the tool). Hence, your attention to mental health is welcomed by all (not just the gun community and their opponents). In fact, that's the key to peace in civilised society, which is often considered all too hard to achieve. So, they just ban stuff, because, you know, we can't be trusted.




Sounds scary. You wore a hazmat suit before picking it up? Nah seriously, when my old man goes, I'll be wading through 11 tonnes of train parts, wrought iron, and 5% of a P-38 Lightning. All up, I reckon you've done better than I

I'd like to see the death rates in the US related to knife usage. Pretty sure it'll be damn high too ;-)

There is simply no need to have a gun. Any logic that says it's needed is flawed imho.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by julianh72

Oh, please! Talk about cherry-picking data!

London happened to have two consecutive bad months for murder statistics, and the lunatic fringe start crowing that New York is safer than London.

Please take a look at the statistics and tell me if you still believe it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43628494

I was thinking the same thing myself.

[Exfso (Peter)]

I think this thread has gone right off the rails, as usual. Reckon it is time for it to be closed before it turns into a complete sh1t fight..

[LewisM]

Yup, the horse bypassed the glue factory and went straight to the compost bin...

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Yes, you can argue that point. i will counter argue - using your logic, any country that wants nukes can have them. I mean, lots of countries having nukes doesn't mean it's dangerous...

Dave, I didn't form an argument in the classical sense, I simply pointed out that the argument on the table, as it were, was demonstrably false. You drew your own conclusions from that.

As for the nuclear canard, I find it somewhat ironic that the demographic of people most ridden with angst about civilian gun ownership is the very same demographic that has ownership and access to nuclear weapons.

I am reminded that I really, really must get off my backside and start a thread, re: character background check of Trump and Clinton... this will make your blood run cold.

best
~c

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Umm no. It doesn't. Geography fail 101. Please repeat that class

Come on Dave, it is patently obvious that Ben was referring to population size.

It serves no purpose to be churlish and obtuse if your intent is to have a reasonable exchange of ideas?

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Suicide rate is proportional to firearm access only if you cherry pick the data points.

Here's a couple that disprove that there is a causative link.

Japan gun ownership 0.6 per 100 people.
Japan suicide rate: 19.7 per 100,000 people.

USA gun ownership: 101 per 100 people.
USA suicide rate: 14.3 per 100,000 people.

Ergo... Japan with 160x less guns per capita, has almost 150% higher suicide rate. (compared to the US)

Source:
Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

Two different cultures, two differnt worlds.


Compare the rate of Australians that own guns to Australians that don't own guns instead.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Well put.
Gun ownership is higher now than it was in 1990, yet the gun crime rate is far lower, and almost exclusively with firearms that have never been legal.

The overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the US are from gang crime, not from some 15yr old shooting up their school. They definitely need some form of gun law reform, but the media seems absolutely focussed on what is a small part of the problem.

I'll concede, there are more guns in Australia now than there were in 1990, but the population has grown, and the guns tend to be owned by fewer people who collect more firearms. Comparing 1990 to now, 75% less households have a gun ownership.


Also, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the USA is from suicide, around 2/3 of all the firearm deaths.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Come on Dave, it is patently obvious that Ben was referring to population size.

It serves no purpose to be churlish and obtuse if your intent is to have a reasonable exchange of ideas?

Clive, I think you're painting me as a villain with the quoted comment, when I don't think I was in any way mean or nasty.

I interpreted Ben's comment as to physical land mass size (as did another user on here), not population. I re-read Ben's comment and still came to the same conclusion, so either I'm incapable of comprehending things correctly (quite possible lol), or, Ben's original comment wasn't clear and concise enough to allow a correct interpretation.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by Kal

Two different cultures, two differnt worlds.

So violence is cultural... and not proportional to gun access.


I'm glad we agree on that point.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by Kal

Also, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the USA is from suicide, around 2/3 of all the firearm deaths.

Suicide is on the rise in nearly every major country (some countries worse than others, like Japan and South Korea). Gun or no gun. It's a serious issue that needs to be addressed, and one that I personally consider as being far more important than gun control debate. But, nevertheless, gun control is an issue imho. A serious issue.