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  #41  
Old 27-01-2007, 11:42 AM
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g__day (Matthew)
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Yeah,

But given within a black hole Relativity => Singularity, but relativity doesn't apply, why not say you get layers within the event horizon as the four forces combine back into 3, then two then one force of quantum gravity as energy densities increase towards the core - and if you keep going you get to a portal back in time or to extra dimensions - it would be just as unfounded as the singularity argument. I'd rather just hear our physics models don't go there so we have no idea of either the geometry nor the force carriers and the forces involved!
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  #42  
Old 27-01-2007, 10:42 PM
AGarvin
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G'day G__day (sorry dude, I had to repeat it .... ).

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G__day said...

But given within a black hole Relativity => Singularity, but relativity doesn't apply ............
But relativity does apply. The whole concept of a black hole singularity is a direct result of General Relativity. No GR, no singularity. It's GR that says we get the singularity, remembering that the physical singularity is nothing more than General Relativity reaching a mathematical singularity. General Relativity works fine inside the event horizon, it's at the point of singularity that it mathematically hits infinity and breaks down, but so does quantum mechanics, which loses it at the Planck scale.

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G__day said...

I'd rather just hear our physics models don't go there so we have no idea of either the geometry nor the force carriers and the forces involved!
Remembering that relativity is a geometric theory, this is essentially what we're saying when we say "singularity". By its very definition singularity means "can't go any further coz it's all turned to #### ".

It's also not missed by theoretical physicists that the General Relativistic Schwartzchild radius of the quantum Planck mass doubled (ie the diameter) is conveniently equal to the Planck length, its Compton wavelength. While QM and GR seem to be at odds, there are strangely in bed together. This is why theoretical physicists are beside themselves trying to unite the two theories beyond this point. Both QM and GR break down to Newtonian physics at macroscopic and non relativistic scales, and rightly or wrongly it's expected that whatever theory goes beyond must breakdown them.

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Sheeny said...

Yeah... These sorts of discussions are extremely difficult in this type of forum IMO because the written word alone is very limiting, and we are all from such different backgrounds that's it's hard to establish the common ground to build on without confusion.
Absolutely. Discussions can often be taken as a personal attack which is not the case.

Cheers,
Andrew.

Last edited by AGarvin; 27-01-2007 at 10:56 PM.
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  #43  
Old 27-01-2007, 10:46 PM
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ballaratdragons (Ken)
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I still like my answer!

Sounds feasable to me

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Originally Posted by ballaratdragons View Post
OK, I'll think outside the box!
If half the Earth suddenly dissappeared the world would break apart and disinigrate!
This would be caused by the unbalanced shape being thrust around it's axis causing severe stress on the odd shaped remaining half.
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  #44  
Old 28-01-2007, 12:20 AM
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That’s certainly neat Ken but if we say disappeared it would be necessary to remove the mass of the “missing half” otherwise we would have to take it into account. The problem often arises in mind exercises like this it becomes more complex the more you think about it and of course its not long before we get to singularities. Having enjoyed a specualtion top arrive at a point we then add detail. Simple answers are dictated by the razor so I recon you win it.
From what I have read it seems that part of being a leading scientist is to be subject to personal attack and the reason is simple ..If you are a leader in the field and you speak the truth and your conclusions are based on solid ground you will be hard to throw in an argument about which you are a leading authority, personal attack will be all that remains for someone challenging the top gun as it were . So if under personal attack be happy they can beat you with real facts . Hows that for a happy view on life?
Having said that I hope I never give offence because I don’t ever intend to hurt anyone’s feelings, if I ever offend it is probably an attempt at poor humour . I like to keep my input as simple as I can and have may be most readers under stand it .
Thinking about the problem as to event horizon etc may not be necessary in the real world. The problem is more one of how to record the physical than to say what it may or may not be doing. The singularity grows from necessity of fitting numbers to our safe ground established by experiment and really how to record the matter.. However this creates a limit imposed really by humans not nature ..If you see my drift . The plank limit is a limit of qualification and the fence line our imagination must sign off. So what I propose I suppose is the squares we use to get a geometric impression simply get smaller and smaller and smaller without any singularity being reached…Just because light cant pass the event horizon does that mean anything should change about the physical content of a black hole. Does not the problem really arise from placing a dot on a sheet of paper and giving up when you can see it anymore.. It is my belief that notwithstanding the theory and “boxing” of particles we think we have it all.. The barrier of singularity need not exist in the real Universe and in our attempt to fit particles in their boxes we stand at a barrier put there by ourselves . Needless to say science can only move forward on solid ground but even Mr Hawking has this uncross able barrier before him.. It has been noted the different backgrounds here and that is very true and say I have an unsteady grasp on what I think I know but I have an ability to get overviews I suppose. Anyways think about it this way we build a singularity out of math and have established “an event horizon” where conventional math breaks down .. Can we get rid of it????? I respectfully ask? Simply for a speculation on what may be happening down there even if the math must follow? And a geometric regression may fix it all .
alex
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  #45  
Old 28-01-2007, 12:42 AM
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All interesting, Alex. Luckily I know where you are coming from.

What amazes me is that all the theories being thrown around by Scientists in our Modern up-to-date world could and probably will be laughed at in the future: "did those poor mis-led creatures really believe that stupid theory".

Just as we now laugh at the flat Earth, and Earth being centre of the Universe.

Our modern theories could be so far out that they will seem unthinkable in 50 - 100 years from now. Hmmmm . . . interesting!
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  #46  
Old 28-01-2007, 01:48 AM
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Oh Ken have you pushed my “hot button” by accident or on purpose ? That reference to a flat world I see when I see the rest of the world viewing the force of attraction as a fact rather than a human invention .. when I look at the Universe and try and perceive the ramifications to current knowledge it is mind boggling . I am so convinced I am on the right track I feel the future will find it hard that we could not realise that although attraction presented to us it was simply our incorrect perception . They will see us like we see flat world people . I morosophically see it that way so it is easy to gather supporting evidence but it comes from an unhealthy interest in how does gravity work on a nuts and bolts system. AND yes its late and wild thoughts abound .
Thinking further about the necessity for things.. could it be that there is indeed not a black hole as we see it in our science.. I thought about the idea above of the effect of a binary black hole system and that system could work with two large mass Suns and possibly exhibit a Mass greater than we can work out. Is not the black hole a product of the space time geometry? As opposed to a sample of a live one? Thinking about it in nature it would not make sense to have what we conceive as a black hole.. or if it were there it must have an extraordinary purpose.. other than a place to cram matter. I therefore wonder of how one could actually fit a black hole in a Universe and I like more of the big Sun Binary System fooling us into thinking we have found a black hole . I wonder how big they would have to be to fool us would be one way of killing that one dead eh ? Still I love to think about it but being good at Chemistry in fifth class does not qualify me to be able to provide all the answers.. well not all this week anyways .
alex
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  #47  
Old 28-01-2007, 01:57 AM
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and drifting further into dream land (I cant sleep dam it..) but when one thinks of the way galaxies line up a literal hole in the centre of a spiral would make sence. Now I know I am dreaming. Good night. One more look at the weather and to bed.
aklex
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