where is our electricity to come from?

[lazjen (Chris)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I would be working on building massive co2 extractors.

I've heard there's these things called "trees" or "plants" that can be deployed on a massive scale to extract CO2...

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Look at the photo I posted above...a 50 lane freeway traffic jam in China.

We are rapidly heading this way. Melbourne's rail system is the same size as it was in 1920, and we are about to widen the West Gate freeway to 12 lanes. It is madness. We do not learn from the mistakes of other cities.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by casstony

I've got solar panels and I shift as much power use as possible to sunny periods. I look forward to installing battery storage when the price drops more and eventually owning an electric car charged from our own panels.

This kind of thing is a very real scenario. If we hadn't just thrown our auto industry in the toilet, I'd be a phased in ban on imports of all fossil fuel vehicles, with exceptions only for remote areas.
Our reliance on imported oil is suicidal. We now don't even have the capacity to refine enough oil on shore. A problem with shipping from Singapore and we are screwed.
Electric vehicles however could be built here and powered by electricity made here. It's a national security issue as much as an environmental one.

[Visionary (David)]

N1 Mirco, you need to update your sources

http://www.afr.com/news/australian-h...0170804-gxp58a

According to the Fin Review, as of 2017 Australians pay the highest power prices in the world

Cheers

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by Visionary

N1 Mirco, you need to update your sources

http://www.afr.com/news/australian-h...0170804-gxp58a

According to the Fin Review, as of 2017 Australians pay the highest power prices in the world

Cheers

I don't have a subscription but I'll take your word for it. So, with Australia not the world leader in renewables (yet), this means a number of countries have a higher percentage of power generation from renewables AND cheaper electricity prices than Australia.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by lazjen

I've heard there's these things called "trees" or "plants" that can be deployed on a massive scale to extract CO2...

Nah, they'll never catch on

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by N1

So, with Australia not the world leader in renewables (yet), this means a number of countries have a higher percentage of power generation from renewables AND cheaper electricity prices than Australia.

Yep... seeing as we are one of the slowest countries to adopt renewable energy technology and our energy costs are the highest in the world, it then follows that we should build more coal fired power stations... it makes perfect sense.

Incidentally, In 2016, Sweden obtained 57 per cent of its power from renewables. Sweden's power price is about middle of the road compared to the rest of the EU. Built in to that price is a heavy tax component.

Denmark:
Wind energy accounts for more than five per cent of the nation’s exports. In addition, Denmark’s biggest energy company Danish Oil and Natural Gas has just announced it will abandon fossil fuels entirely by 2023 and focus on renewables.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by casstony

I feel you contradict yourself a little Alex.

If it's good for an individual to limit their impact on the environment, doesn't it follow that it's good for Australia (or any other collection of individuals) to do the same? In any case much of the world is making efforts to move away from fossil fuels. The US has a ning-nong in charge at the moment but it won't always be that way.

I've got solar panels and I shift as much power use as possible to sunny periods. I look forward to installing battery storage when the price drops more and eventually owning an electric car charged from our own panels.

Edit: I also bought a small generator for this summer because Hazelwood was shut down a few years too early.

Hi Tony
To say that I contradict myself simply can not be correct for it would imply that somehow I am wrong...of course that could not be so.

I understand your point and it is wonderful that some folk are keen to do the right thing but I dont see the point whilst the greedy simply do not care...as a nation I hope we could provide the example for others to follow but I can not see anyone in the USA, for example, getting rid of their huge capacity V8 or a certain manufacturere in Italy building 1500 cc v12 sport cars.

And all the while our culture via Hollywood etc tells us that sucess is a garage of cars built to top out at 300 klms per hour.

And at the moment the mugs carry the dream ... sucess is an entitilement to sheer gloutony via huge houses, multiple huge houses, huge cars, multiple huge cars huge boats etc...

Look at our mate Al Gore the guy who offerred to educate folk on a very real problem and yet what do we learn...he lives in a house that is both wasteful and set up to indulge greedy consumption drives a v 12 car, and stands in wait for legislation to go his way so as to personally profit.

Tony I simply suggest that until at a personal level our values adjust to embrace conservative and rational consumption there is not much that can be done.

All I see will happen as the planet warms uncomfortably will be after market suppliers offerring bigger car radiators so you can still run your V8 or V 12 or W16 in a hotter climate.

At a personal level I do all I can to not be a glutton...I drive a 1200 cc car and buy stuff on the basis of need not greed...although astronomy comes down to a little of greed I guess even making scopes takes energy ...still better than spending money on race cars that do nothing other than help dilute the testosterone build up in those who think they will be noticed if they race a car etc....and I have been there, raced bikes and in reflection how silly and unproductive... to be faster than another ...who cares...

We are on such a wonderful planet and yet there are those who dont appreciate that fact and do not care that we stand is a place where we could destroy the place...

And I will not let this post go by with out another dig at nuclear....

The care in looking after the current disasters is costly and all take it for granted that there will always be humans around who are capable of looking after the mess.

I see no reason why we could not be overtaken by another period of dark ages where the high tech folk of the world are no more... what happens then? Can you imagine say if Rome had NP and what would happen when their rule died.

At the moment our culture presents stupid as the goal to achieve...
Our stars (sporting or whatever) show that glutonous consumption is the aspiration that we have to follow.

ANd Tony it is great to hear that you do things that are worthwhile and forward thinking.

All one can do is provide those around you with an example of good and smart and hope that what you do right will be seen as wonderful rather than crazy.


alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by lazjen

I've heard there's these things called "trees" or "plants" that can be deployed on a massive scale to extract CO2...

I now have 300 acres of trees.

alex

[xelasnave]

And on the subject of trees...even the enterprize of growing trees was horribly corrupted by the global warming thing...plantations put in merely to take advantage of tax benefits which now are being killed off and taken back to pasture... it is sad to see a plane fly over and over a forrest with the only purpose to kill all the trees.

alex

[Visionary (David)]

Clive, DONG (Danish Oil & Natural Gas) is a State-owned company, their utterances regard renewables reflect the desires of Politicians (reelection) rather than anything to do with the business of energy generation, in which they are clearly not interested.
The only reason our bills aren't even higher is that we still have some conventional Power Stations, the ones that produced electricity 24/7 365 days a year and produce power without the need for subsidies, incentives, "schemes" etc:
Danish Oil & Natural Gas acronym DONG tells you much about the company.... they are a bunch of DONG's, with as much business acumen as a hat full of EU Fat Cats on Bussell's bound junket.

[Shiraz (Ray)]

for interest, this paper provides a really clear picture of what is currently going on. No politics that I can see - just lots of facts.
https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/...7%20-%20A4.pdf

[clive milne]

David, your description of Danish Oil & Natural Gas is pejorative and unsubstantiated. That reduces your argument to ad-hominem.

Your willingness to employ such tactics whilst avoiding facts such as Sweden having 4 times the deployment of renewables compared to Australia, yet has lower energy prices.... is telling.

Why is it that your poor old dear suffers chill blanes in one of the warmest and most heavily fossil fuel dependent countries in the developed world ... you put it down to a few wind turbines in SA and those commie, socialist, lefty grumpkins under the bed... yet arguably one of the most left wing, socially equitable societies living on the edge of arctic circle manages to keep everyone warm... whilst relying on base load renewable energy ... and does it cheaper than we can?

Say it aint so?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by Visionary

Clive, DONG (Danish Oil & Natural Gas) is a State-owned company, their utterances regard renewables reflect the desires of Politicians (reelection) rather than anything to do with the business of energy generation, in which they are clearly not interested.
The only reason our bills aren't even higher is that we still have some conventional Power Stations, the ones that produced electricity 24/7 365 days a year and produce power without the need for subsidies, incentives, "schemes" etc:
Danish Oil & Natural Gas acronym DONG tells you much about the company.... they are a bunch of DONG's, with as much business acumen as a hat full of EU Fat Cats on Bussell's bound junket.

There you go again,saying the fossil fuel industry doesn't get Subsidies.
That is just BS as we all know,except you it seems.
The coal companies get Massive tax breaks,with some of them not paying tax for years, and with write downs etc in fact are owed money by the tax payer.

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Just saying...
I worked as financial accountant for a coal fired power station for 21 years.
Not only did we not get any subsidies or handouts from the government, we annually paid hundreds of millions of dollars to that government in taxes and dividends.
and that was when the prices to the consumer were about a third of what mine are now.
Of course, that all changed when the government decided to sell the industry to private enterprise, so as to increase competition and reduce prices. What a joke.

but still, this does not address the issue of renewables or CO2 emissions.

But I am watching SA solar/battery solution with interest.

[gary]

Originally Posted by Allan_L

Not only did we not get any subsidies or handouts from the government, we annually paid hundreds of millions of dollars to that government in taxes and dividends ...

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the post.

Unlike Swiss-based Glencore it seems, Australia's biggest coal miner,
who is caught up today in the Paradise Papers leak.

ABC's 4-Corners tonight is apparently running an exposé on global tax havens.

Originally Posted by 4-Corners

In 2014, Glencore made $23.7 billion in revenue (more than Australia’s second largest listed company, Westpac) and made $296 million in profit.

This figure represents about $1.30 in profit for every $100 in revenue. It paid tax of $55 million on its profit.

The leaked documents reveal Glencore used the swaps in a $3.7 billion refinancing of its Australian operations in 2013, and in a major Australian restructure in 2014 that left it with debts of $US11.6 billion.

The complicated swap financing structures used by Glencore were routed through Glencore companies in Bermuda.

Story here :-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-0...s-leak/9075642

and here :-

Originally Posted by The Guardian

The Australian arm of the global mining giant Glencore has been involved in cross-currency swaps of up to $25bn of a type under specific investigation by the Australian tax office, the Paradise Papers reveal.

...
The Paradise Papers show that on 12 April 2013 two Bermuda-based arms of Glencore – Glencore Capital and Glencore Finance (Bermuda) – changed $25bn in Australian dollars to US dollars through Glencore Australia Investment Holdings.

Another Australian entity, Glencore Australia Finance, engaged in currency swaps with Bermuda-based Glencore Capital: for A$25m on 15 April 2013; and A$10m on 24 June.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...hrough-bermuda

[Visionary (David)]

Originally Posted by Allan_L

Just saying...
I worked as financial accountant for a coal fired power station for 21 years.
Not only did we not get any subsidies or handouts from the government, we annually paid hundreds of millions of dollars to that government in taxes and dividends.
and that was when the prices to the consumer were about a third of what mine are now.
Of course, that all changed when the government decided to sell the industry to private enterprise, so as to increase competition and reduce prices. What a joke.

but still, this does not address the issue of renewables or CO2 emissions.

But I am watching SA solar/battery solution with interest.

In the end, facts have a way of wiggling out and revealing themselves. Cheers!

[xelasnave]

Near 25 billion turn over and our govt could only get their hands on 55 million is shameful.

I hope it is this sort of thing that occupies headlines in the future rather than the dual citizen ship stuff which should be an admin problem deal with by public servnts leaving the polies to address important matters like who may not be paying their fair share.

We get how much..close them down

alex

[raymo]

I'm not so sure about that, David. It's not the end user of the products [coal,
iron ore, nickel, etc:] that get the tax breaks, it's the mining companies.
raymo

[xelasnave]

2% turnover tax should be minimum
alex