Compulsory Military Service.

[Wavytone]

That's what the nanny state is producing ... a generation of ninnies and useless idiots.

If it wasn't for the nanny state most of them would have culled themselves - through their own acts of stupidity - before they could breed more of same.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

How about an incentive.
You can't stand for parliament unless you do some military service.
It could be air force or navy as well.
I did 12 years in the Navy - it can be fun (sometimes) and you do learn self reliance.
The Israelis do OK on it - and the Swiss.
The Swiss even get to keep their rifle and a load of ammo - Every swiss man over 20 has a rifle in their house. You don't hear many reports of unfettered violence from them, do you?

[casstony]

Originally Posted by graham.hobart

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-2...t-boys/8837368


Today's ABC.
Seems we are raising a bunch of useless gorms! (especially boys)

Sounds like BS to me, good subject for a professor/professional to gain publicity though, especially if he's selling a book. Schools today are more proactive in combatting bullying and violence than they were in my day and I don't see hordes of useless young people.

If you want to find troubled youth you can find them in economically depressed areas with accompanying generational poverty.

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Originally Posted by jenchris

... Every swiss man over 20 has a rifle in their house. You don't hear many reports of unfettered violence from them, do you?

Reminds me of a story from WW2. Goring was talking to the Swiss leader and asked him how many men he had to defend their border. Half a million was the reply.

German Field Marshal Goring then asked, what will happen if I send a million soldiers to invade Switzerland? The Swiss leader replied: Our men will each have to shoot twice.

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Apparently compulsory service tends to degrade the quality of a countries military according to someone on the net, but just like that guy I offer no authority.
Maybe he just thought that sounded good and adopted that position without any study...but so many folk fall for belief rather than seek research.
Alex

In 1961 the British army went all professional.
It is beyond doubt that you get a better quality of serviceman from being fully professional.
The National Serviceman just does enough to do what he/she has to do,with the prime aim of counting down the days to his/her demob in two years.
It is inefficient to have national service as a person is just trained to do his/her job and they are out the door.
Ask any commander of an armed force what kind of soldier he would prefer,he will tell you every time,a professional any day.
The armed forces are not baby sitters for people who cant parent their children.
Cheers

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by astroron

In 1961 the British army went all professional.
It is beyond doubt that you get a better quality of serviceman from being fully professional.
The National Serviceman just does enough to do what he/she has to do,with the prime aim of counting down the days to his/her demob in two years.
It is inefficient to have national service as a person is just trained to do his/her job and they are out the door.
Ask any commander of an armed force what kind of soldier he would prefer,he will tell you every time,a professional any day.
The armed forces are not baby sitters for people who cant parent their children.
Cheers

Yes Ron my proposal seems not the answer.
Alex

[Tandum (Robin)]

The last thing i want is for the state to interfere with my son's future.

His school friend however is now in Israel for his 3rd tour of duty.

[Orionskies (Julian)]

Compulsory Military service is a terrible idea Full stop.
Backwards and unnecessary and waste of money why should the tax payer pick up the bill for poor and lazy parenting .
The answer is simple stop cash hand outs to encourage breeding and put money directly into schools, hospitals etc.

And encourage sterilization!......I know through cash handouts!

Cheers Julian.

[blindman]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

This is one out of left field. Surprising that Alex has the time to worry about such matters, when it's all too plainly obvious that the great man is pressed for time.

Let's face it, there's a snowflake's chance in Hell of reintroducing conscription.....which is really what Alex is proposing. I think that Alex should get himself a useful job, rather than waste our time with kite-flying exercises.

That was a good one

[JA]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

This is one out of left field. Surprising that Alex has the time to worry about such matters, when it's all too plainly obvious that the great man is pressed for time.

Let's face it, there's a snowflake's chance in Hell of reintroducing conscription.....which is really what Alex is proposing. I think that Alex should get himself a useful job, rather than waste our time with kite-flying exercises.

Originally Posted by blindman

That was a good one

Not Really ....

JA

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by blindman

That was a good one

You sure know how to hurt a guy.
I am truely crushed to find that a member who is held in such high regard on this forum thinks so little of me.
Still I must move on, how I dont know.
Maybe I should go to the employment agency and find a job.. Kite flying perhaps.
Alex

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Well John you fail to see my concern for others even though I expressed that was my motivation.

I posted so folk like me could have a chat, even folk like yourself may even find time to express an opinion but in future you may be able to recognise that I open many kite flying threads and so you will be able to side step and not get involved and waste your time... You could put me on ignore and take me out of your universe altogether.

I doubt at 70 years old and using a walking frame and barely capable of looking after myself I could offer any employer much opportunity to profit from my feeble contribution to their business.

But think of it this way I am sure you must have gained some small satisfaction having a dig so maybe I can be that person you just love to hate.

Great man, a back hander indeed, don't you recognise humility when it is before you.

Hope you feel better and look forward to your future contributions.Thanks for playing I do enjoy it.

Alex

Alex, thank you for your concern regarding my health.....I actually feel very well. I don't believe in ignore buttons. After all, we are here to engage with each other, not hide away by using ignore options.

As I am a fairly new member, I wasn't aware of your long history on this forum, so I apologise if I sounded too censorious, but it just struck me that the issue of military conscription wasn't on anyone's agenda and there hasn't been any mention of it anywhere....as far as I know. So, alas, I thought you were kite-flying and I probably went in a bit too hard. I have seen other forums, of which I have been a member, torn to pieces with flame wars, started by members who did not have the best interests of those particular forums, uppermost in their minds.

BTW, hope your health improves. I too am 70 (last week) and fortunately, I have no health issues of any concern. I gave up running a few years ago and I now find that I enjoy walking much more than running.....gives one a chance to think and enjoy a bit of solitude for a time. Cheers.

[sil (Steve)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I doubt at 70 years old and using a walking frame and barely capable of looking after myself I could offer any employer much opportunity to profit from my feeble contribution to their business.

Unfortunately true mate, I had a stroke a few years ago at 42 so I have a new permanent physical disability, can barely walk with a stick, lost use of one arm. People actively go out of their way to avoid interacting with me. Many will speak slowly to me, ijust want to smack them in the head with my stick and scream "physical disability does not mean mental disability ********". Its very clear I won't be able to get a job anywhere else or even be considered to promotion where I currently am , a government department so thanks to OHS BS they can't just sack me but they can make my work life unbareable and alienating in the hope I just piss off altogether. I am not disabled enough to get any sort of financial assistance either by definition in legislation and the government won't support studies of emerging treatments in use overseas either. All those miracle cures etc that crop up rarely on the news never actually make it into the health care system.


Anyway the national service idea could be good in theory but in practice would be badly implemented. First we need our democracy to actually BE democratic. IE the public decide on poltician pays and benefits and whether they stay in office or are allowed a pension. Technically they are meant to be accountable to the Public and we need to implement that. Then they will start to do things properly instead of short term political gains and doing the bare minimum. Sure you can say a lot of young are just lazy scroungers, but look at the leadership example they have to follow.

Yes a lot of parents think raising kids is a matter of throwing money at the problem (problem being actually interacting with their kids, teaching them, setting good examples etc). And our schools should be teaching many life skills instead we now have so many nannying laws: not allowed to touch children, not allowed to acknowledge any religions, etc all because its so easy to sue these days (another quick win solution, setting a bad example). If a child needs a comforting hug, damn well give them a hug, if a child is observing a religious day then teach the class about that, doesnt mean you have to teach complete ALL religions, you teach about the reason a child honours something and show its not something to be shunned, let all children join in and engage with various cultures through being allowed to talk about them. It doesn't need special teachers or special classes to do this just good communication skills (also a good thing for children to learn). It can work like a show and tell thing. Treat children like adults and they quickly learn to be adults, stop hiding behind a piece of paper with the word Policy in big letters across the top. Show some common sense.

Tangents, grrr. National Service, you want to give a generation of youth access to weapons and teach them to kill? Enough Yes Prime Minister. Scouts organisations might be the better direction with things like camping trips where everyone has no choice but to learn how to cook and clean and gets them away from their damn phones and tech garbage. They need to experience life to comprehend the benefits of doing things for themselves instead of being told what to do. Real experiences not fake ones, our Secretary used to do the sleepout every year and would spout on about how he had a deep understanding of what its like for the homeless: he had a nice warm sleeping bag (taxpayer bought), his iphone and warm food had been organised to feed everyone, just one night. So yeah, sounds like my experience of homelessness. Having people spit at you and abuse you throughout the day, having no cover from the rain, having to eat out of bins, having no access to toilets, these are what really happens that these staged events give no hint of, they are organised and catered for, organised for after the streets are empty of the public and everyone goes home before the morning rush of people too. The young need to experience the reality of life for themselves, if they want to think its all easy and like a video game then fine, they wont live to old age and their children will die off too, natural selection.Work For The Dole was meant to provide job skills but in practice it provides skills nobody wants and also does not try to integrate with local businesses so the skills can be put to use in the community in front of a potential employer and the rare cases they try its only because the business is being paid to babysit the unemployed and you never hear of anyone ever getting a full time job out of it. Our government is only concerned with the "image" of doing good, but in practice it doesn't work.

I speak from experience here, not assumptions.

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

As the TOS are no longer applicable on this forum, I'll tell you a tale about a regime with compulsory service.

One moning at the entrance to this nation's international harbour, a most grizzly sight greeted every one. Dozens of naked bodies were washing up on the shore. They all had one thing in common - they had all been shot in the head.

They were also all political prisoners. Men and women.

This regime decided they want to eliminate these people, not free them. Most were innocent, but were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So to dispose of the bodies, instead of burying them (mass graves can be found) they flew them out over the sea in a transport plane and dumped them into the water.

What they did not count on was the tide bringing back the bodies.

So I have a real chip on my shoulder when it comes to compulsory service. Have a guaranteed mass force, and the powers that be begin to feel invincible and use these powers at will and with total disregard for life.

Didn't we learn anything from Vietnam? Our own Government didn't give two thoughts about us to send our boys in when they were given no choice.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by sil

Unfortunately true mate, I had a stroke a few years ago at 42 so I have a new permanent physical disability, can barely walk with a stick, lost use of one arm. People actively go out of their way to avoid interacting with me. Many will speak slowly to me, ijust want to smack them in the head with my stick and scream "physical disability does not mean mental disability ********". Its very clear I won't be able to get a job anywhere else or even be considered to promotion where I currently am , a government department so thanks to OHS BS they can't just sack me but they can make my work life unbareable and alienating in the hope I just piss off altogether. I am not disabled enough to get any sort of financial assistance either by definition in legislation and the government won't support studies of emerging treatments in use overseas either. All those miracle cures etc that crop up rarely on the news never actually make it into the health care system.


Anyway the national service idea could be good in theory but in practice would be badly implemented. First we need our democracy to actually BE democratic. IE the public decide on poltician pays and benefits and whether they stay in office or are allowed a pension. Technically they are meant to be accountable to the Public and we need to implement that. Then they will start to do things properly instead of short term political gains and doing the bare minimum. Sure you can say a lot of young are just lazy scroungers, but look at the leadership example they have to follow.

Yes a lot of parents think raising kids is a matter of throwing money at the problem (problem being actually interacting with their kids, teaching them, setting good examples etc). And our schools should be teaching many life skills instead we now have so many nannying laws: not allowed to touch children, not allowed to acknowledge any religions, etc all because its so easy to sue these days (another quick win solution, setting a bad example). If a child needs a comforting hug, damn well give them a hug, if a child is observing a religious day then teach the class about that, doesnt mean you have to teach complete ALL religions, you teach about the reason a child honours something and show its not something to be shunned, let all children join in and engage with various cultures through being allowed to talk about them. It doesn't need special teachers or special classes to do this just good communication skills (also a good thing for children to learn). It can work like a show and tell thing. Treat children like adults and they quickly learn to be adults, stop hiding behind a piece of paper with the word Policy in big letters across the top. Show some common sense.

Tangents, grrr. National Service, you want to give a generation of youth access to weapons and teach them to kill? Enough Yes Prime Minister. Scouts organisations might be the better direction with things like camping trips where everyone has no choice but to learn how to cook and clean and gets them away from their damn phones and tech garbage. They need to experience life to comprehend the benefits of doing things for themselves instead of being told what to do. Real experiences not fake ones, our Secretary used to do the sleepout every year and would spout on about how he had a deep understanding of what its like for the homeless: he had a nice warm sleeping bag (taxpayer bought), his iphone and warm food had been organised to feed everyone, just one night. So yeah, sounds like my experience of homelessness. Having people spit at you and abuse you throughout the day, having no cover from the rain, having to eat out of bins, having no access to toilets, these are what really happens that these staged events give no hint of, they are organised and catered for, organised for after the streets are empty of the public and everyone goes home before the morning rush of people too. The young need to experience the reality of life for themselves, if they want to think its all easy and like a video game then fine, they wont live to old age and their children will die off too, natural selection.Work For The Dole was meant to provide job skills but in practice it provides skills nobody wants and also does not try to integrate with local businesses so the skills can be put to use in the community in front of a potential employer and the rare cases they try its only because the business is being paid to babysit the unemployed and you never hear of anyone ever getting a full time job out of it. Our government is only concerned with the "image" of doing good, but in practice it doesn't work.

I speak from experience here, not assumptions.

Excellent post, Sil.....thanks.

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Alex & Sil,

Two very good posts.

I have worked with a people and dealt with a lot of customers that were traumatised by the Vietnam war.

This is why I suggested a scheme that deals with natural disasters and supporting remote communities. I can see value in providing training and employment for young people, but have never been comfortable with providing unskilled people with skills mainly in weaponry and then letting them loose back into the community.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

Alex, thank you for your concern regarding my health.....I actually feel very well. I don't believe in ignore buttons. After all, we are here to engage with each other, not hide away by using ignore options.

As I am a fairly new member, I wasn't aware of your long history on this forum, so I apologise if I sounded too censorious, but it just struck me that the issue of military conscription wasn't on anyone's agenda and there hasn't been any mention of it anywhere....as far as I know. So, alas, I thought you were kite-flying and I probably went in a bit too hard. I have seen other forums, of which I have been a member, torn to pieces with flame wars, started by members who did not have the best interests of those particular forums, uppermost in their minds.

BTW, hope your health improves. I too am 70 (last week) and fortunately, I have no health issues of any concern. I gave up running a few years ago and I now find that I enjoy walking much more than running.....gives one a chance to think and enjoy a bit of solitude for a time. Cheers.

Happy birthday for last week John.

You must have done the birthday lottery also I expect.

Its funny I did not link conscription as we experienced it with the sort of thing I was trying to come up with...

And what got me going was a realisation how some in our society really dont have much of a chance.

Anyways no doubt my solution was wrong on many levels and like so many things it seemed like a good idea at the time.

And thank you for appolologising but there was no need, for I failed to connect between my idea and the draft way back, but of course I humbly accept your appology.

I dont think kids are worse today I think they have it worse than I did.

I have been very lucky and I wish the folk society forgets could be treated better.

Thanks again.

Alex

[casstony]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

As the TOS are no longer applicable on this forum, .

Thankfully our moderators are 'spirit of the law' rather than 'letter of the law' kind of people, so they allow us a little latitude in the General Forum.

[xelasnave]

Hi Sil
That was a most interesting post thanks for taking the time... You are so on the money.
Alex

[sheeny (Al)]

Originally Posted by mental4astro

As the TOS are no longer applicable on this forum,

Not so Alex.

I can assure you this thread is being watched... closely.

Al.