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  #41  
Old 26-01-2007, 11:53 AM
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hi all heres to keeping up the fight against light pollution i myself am blessed with darker skys than most but i will admit over the years they are getting brighter. i remeber the last time i was in sydney overnight i was discussded to only see the brighter stars and longed for the dark sky of home.
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  #42  
Old 27-01-2007, 05:45 PM
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AstroJunk (Jonathan)
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Hi Jonathan

Thank you for your email. CS Energy installed the floodlights on the chimneys of Swanbank B power station to comply with a recent regulation change from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. When determining where to place the lights, CS Energy carried out a risk assessment of floodlights near the chimney bases versus placing warning lights placed up the length of the chimneys. The Swanbank B chimneys are each 137 metres high and over 30 years old. It was determined that installing warning lights could pose a safety risk for the personnel who would need to climb the chimneys to install and maintain the lights. The safety of CS Energy's people is our highest priority, so it was decided to instead install the floodlights near the bases of the chimneys. The floodlights were installed in such a way so they do not shine into the boilerhouse or local residents' homes.

I appreciate your concerns over the issue. Please contact me if you require any further information.

Regards

Lisa White
Marketing and Communication Adviser
CS Energy
GPO Box 769
Brisbane Qld 4001
Ph: (07) 3222 9386
Fax: (07) 3222 9323
Mob: 0419 749 860
Email: Lwhite@csenergy.com.au
www.csenergy.com.au
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  #43  
Old 27-01-2007, 09:50 PM
thunderchildobs
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This is a standard reply. I got one which is nearly identical back in December.

Quote:
Thank you for your enquiry. CS Energy recently installed floodlights on the chimneys of its Swanbank B Power Station to comply with regulations from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. The floodlights were installed in such a way so they do not shine into the station's boilerhouse and surrounding homes. If you need any additional information, please let me know.

Regards

Lisa White
Marketing and Communication Adviser
CS Energy
GPO Box 769
Brisbane Qld 4001
Ph: (07) 3222 9386
Fax: (07) 3222 9323
Mob: 0419 749 860
Email: Lwhite@csenergy.com.au
www.csenergy.com.au
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  #44  
Old 27-01-2007, 10:12 PM
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ballaratdragons (Ken)
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In other words, they are saying "Tough, live with it".
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  #45  
Old 27-01-2007, 11:16 PM
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AstroJunk (Jonathan)
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Dear Annoying Public,

See if we care.

Love and Kisses, Big Corporation.

PS Don't forget to pay your bills on time.
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  #46  
Old 28-01-2007, 12:37 AM
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gaa_ian (Ian)
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You Crack me up astrojunk
I hope that they will have to give a more Specific Answer to the Email I have sent them.
A reply from the Company PR person does not really cut the mustard, They will have to do better than that !
As for the "It's not safe to install anything else read "My manager did not want to spend the money that it would take to safely install decent lights & took the cheap option"
This is not over yet
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  #47  
Old 28-01-2007, 01:04 AM
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ballaratdragons (Ken)
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Go get em Ian!!!

Kill! Mangle!! Destroy!!!

Those reply emails are so weak.
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  #48  
Old 28-01-2007, 01:48 AM
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Don't be discouraged. Sic 'em Rex!
Being a faceless corporation, "No" will always be there first response. You'd almost expect them to treat you with contempt on the first try.

If you can publicly out them with being irresponsible to the environment, needlessly adding green house gases and generally not being a very considerate member of your community, then you'd expect them to change their ways. ie. McDonalds couldn't get their "healthy" meals out fast enough, after the bad press.

What you really need is an MP coming up for re-election with a conscience about the environment. Although I don't know where you're going to get a politician with a conscience
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  #49  
Old 28-01-2007, 12:44 PM
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To be more annoying, is to ask them questions that a PR person cannot answer.

Please give a detail description of the design and types of lights being used?
What level of brightness is needed to meet safety regulations
What angles are the lights position at
Are the lights shielded? If not why not?
What was the name of the company that designed the lighting solution?
What action is being taken to reduce the light pollution?

Brendan

Brendan
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  #50  
Old 28-01-2007, 01:02 PM
thunderchildobs
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Light Pollution at Swanbank January 17th, 2007 Update

I sent a email to CSEngery the operates of Swanbank power station on 30/11/2006 concerning the floodlighting of the chimneys. To which they responded on 04/12/2006. A further email was sent on 17/12/2006 as I had some more questions. This time they responded with a letter. As part of the letter they offered to have a meeting to discuss my concerns. I took them up on their offer. The meeting was held on 17/01/2007 at Swanbank. The meeting was with John James, Site Manager Swanbank and John Green(?) Environmental Officer(?)

I explained to them why I was concerned the lighting of the chimneys from an astronomical view point.
* Good lighting involves the lights pointing down, being shielded and only
lighting the desired area.
* City based astronomers unfortunately accept that there will all ways be light pollution in a urban environment
* The light pollution needs to be controlled, mininised
* If one company is allowed to shine lights into the sky, then another will do it, and then another, so the sky will be wasted
* I explained to them my understanding of what could be happening., the lights are not properly aligned and not shielded.
* I showed them the pictures I have taken, showing the effects of the lighting.
* Astronomers understand the need for safety lighting, like everyone else we
would hate to see anyone get hurt by a plane crashing into the towers, or being injured by working on the chimneys.
* I asked why they couldn't use red flashing hazards as seen on many other tall structures ( like the TV towers on Mt Cootha)

John James then explained the situation from Swanbank view point.
* The lights will be gone by 2011/2012 when the towers are planed to be
removed. (Three other chimneys were recently removed).
* The chimneys are lit to meet CASA air safety requirements.
* CASA requires the top of the chimneys to be lit and be at a certain light (lux?) level.
* Hazard lights need to be placed at certain intervals and on all sides of the
chimneys.
* Access to the chimneys can only occur when the generators that use that
chimney is shut down. There are safety issues with gases and heat.
* Access to the chimneys is via single ladder that goes to top at about 140m, where there is platform. To access the other sides of the chimney requires someone to absail down the side of the chimney.
* A red hazard light has fallen from a chimney hitting a car.
* Swanbank has no particular desire themselves to have the chimneys lit other to meet CASA requirements.
* It costs Swanbank to install and run the lights, they would be happy to save the money by turning them off.
* Unnecessary lighting and other unnecessary power consumption causes the Swanbank to generate more power which in turns uses more water and
releases more greenhouse gases. The use of additional water is a concern due to the current drought in south east Queensland.

My view of John James's comments were that
* They were surprised to see how much light was missing the towers
* The lighting engineer meet the CASA requirements but failed to take into
account the way the light spread / scatters from lights.

John James then took me onto the site so that I could get a close up view of the lights and the chimneys. After the tour of chimneys we returned to the meeting and discussed the situation based on what I have seen.

On seeing the chimneys from their base and the height of that ladder, I can fully understand their safety concerns about having people climb the ladders.
My first impressions of the lights were somewhat disappointing. I had expected to see a series of large banks of lights like you would see the SCG or MCG. Instead around each chimney are four sets of two 2000watt lights mounted on a stand that could be used for netball. A total of eight pairs. Each light would be not larger than about 50cm(?). There is no shielding at all on the lights and the lights point nearly vertical.

On the bright side (bad pun) , sorry positive side there is no large expensive structure or mounting that would need to be modified. The lights sit on simple pivot mount. Loosening a couple of bolts would allow the angle of the lights to be changed. The current lights are in a surprisingly simple setup which any weekend electrician could have installed.

The solution to fix the lights would be have a some sort of hollow tube mounted in front of the lights. The tube would act as a light shield better directing the light onto the towers. The tube would then sit on top of a pole. I would image it would be relatively simple for a lighting engineer to work out what angle the lights should be at and the length of tube to get the correct lux levels and minimise the scatter.

A second part of the solution is that there are two pairs of lights that are located in between to the chimneys. It would appear that these are either redundant or could be set a lower light level because unless a plane is flying between the chimneys a plane would not see these side of the chimneys.

Is anybody a lighting engineer or has a friend that could help out?

John James said that
* He would talk to his lighting engineers about my ideas.
* He would to the light supplier to see if there light shields available
* That I should contact CASA to find out their view on the lights

For me
* I will be contacting CASA to get more information
* Follow-up with John James to see if he did talk to his lighting engineers,
* Follow-up with John James to see if the light supplier provide light shields
* I would like to talk to lighting engineer

There has been 4 letter published by the Queensland Times protesting against the lights. An Additional letter published said "Like to see to work on the towers and get your facts right". To which I responded by asking the letter's writer which facts were wrong and the source of his information. As far as I can tell, the letter's writer has not replied back.


Please complain to CSEngery EnergyInfo@csenergy.com.au
or email to the Queensland Times letters letters@qt.com.au

If you do write, please let me know

Brendan
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  #51  
Old 29-01-2007, 05:31 PM
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Sausageman (Mike Boggan)
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[QUOTE=thunderchildobs;187331]Light Pollution at Swanbank January 17th, 2007 Update




Quote:
* Hazard lights need to be placed at certain intervals and on all sides of the chimneys.
This interpretation is not correct.

The actual wording is that the lights must be placed equal to or higher than the structure and be visible from all directions.

I also found this in Civil Aviation Regulations 1998.

Quote:
Division 9 Removal or Marking of Obstructions or Other Hazards
94 Dangerous lights
(1) Whenever any light is exhibited at or in the neighbourhood of an
aerodrome, or in the neighbourhood of an air route or airway facility
on an air route or airway, and the light is likely to endanger the safety
of aircraft, whether by reason of glare, or by causing confusion with,
or preventing clear reception of, the lights or signals prescribed in Part
13 or of air route or airway facilities provided under the Air Services
Act 1995, CASA may authorise a notice to be served upon the owner
of the place where the light is exhibited or upon the person having
charge of the light directing that owner or person, within a reasonable
time to be specified in the notice, to extinguish or to screen effectually
the light and to refrain from exhibiting any similar light in the future.
Send them that Brendan. I think it constitutes a hazard.

Still looking for specific regs though.

Mike.
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  #52  
Old 29-01-2007, 06:40 PM
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AstroJunk (Jonathan)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausageman View Post
I think it constitutes a hazard.
Technically you're probably right, but I expect the CASA were part of the solution/problem in the first place - surely cs energy would have consulted them on their plans?!? So law or no law if the "authority" is not taking an interest, you would have to take out a civil action.

Any one got deep pockets?
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  #53  
Old 30-01-2007, 08:12 AM
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gaa_ian (Ian)
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Well done Brendan
You have certainly got their attention & you have opened up a useful Dialog. That will be by far the most effective way of dealing with the issue.
I would be interested to see a picture of the lights they are using ?
It may well be, that if they chose an "Architectural Light" rather than an "Industrial Light" they would get a much better result. Using less Energy, with a much lower "Upward waste light Ratio" these thing can be calculated by the supplier of the lights, a computer program is used to do this.
I will be very interested to see the lighting Engineers responce.
The usual way light fittings are chosen on large industrial sites is "what do we have in the warehouse", "are they the biggest ones", "yep, install them"
I know this from first hand experience
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2007, 07:05 PM
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gaa_ian (Ian)
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As a further update to this issue I have received & sent the following reply, to the Email I sent to CS Energy:
"Hi Lisa
Thanks for your reply
My Apologies for the broken link, this one works (i have tested it)
http://www.avlite.com/products/showcase.php
Look at the "Hazard Beacons"
These lights offer a "Maintenance free" light, at least in relation to the residual life of your stacks, which I understand is through to 2012.
I appreciate your concerns for the safety of your workers, I too work in an environment where EHS is put first.
I would suggest that however, in this instance the Safety issues could be reduced to an acceptable level by the application of appropriate control measures, for a one off installation of "hazard lights", without the need for further maintenance during the the remainder of the stacks life.
I believe this is an important environmental measure, that requires further investigation.
The first engineering solution applied to a problem is not necessarily the best one.
Regards



EnergyInfo <EnergyInfo@csenergy.com.au> wrote:

Hi Ian

The hyperlink you sent me did not work, so unfortunately I was unable to read about the product you suggested. CASA wrote to CS Energy's Swanbank Power Station requesting that both chimney stacks at Swanbank B be lit in accordance with their "Manual of Standards (Part 139)". This request followed a change to CASA requirements and a new assessment of the stacks, which found they presented a hazard to aircraft transiting to and from Archerfield Aerodrome.

When determining where to place the lights, CS Energy carried out a risk assessment of installing floodlights near the chimney bases, versus obstacle lights placed up the length of the chimneys. The Swanbank B chimneys are each 137 metres high and over 30-years-old. It was determined that installing obstacle lights would pose a safety risk for our personnel who would need to climb the chimneys to install and maintain the lights. As the safety of CS Energy's people is our highest priority, we decided that installing floodlights near the bases of the chimneys was a safer option. CASA also endorsed this decision as a more practical option in the circumstances.

Swanbank Power Station hired a lighting designer to install the floodlights to CASA’s standards and Australian Standards for lighting. The lights are carefully positioned to shine directly on the stacks and avoid the rest of the station and neighbouring homes. The lights also have sensors to ensure they automatically turn on and off in response to changing dusk and dawn times. As the stacks are very high vertical structures, some lighting is almost vertical and shines onto both the stacks and sky. We have used the best lighting technology currently available and will continue to look for ways to ensure the light is kept to a minimum while still complying with CASA’s standards.

I appreciate your concerns over this issue and hope I have answered your questions.

Lisa White
Marketing and Communication Adviser
CS Energy
GPO Box 769
Brisbane Qld 4001
Ph: (07) 3222 9386
Fax: (07) 3222 9323
Mob: 0419 749 860
Email: Lwhite@csenergy.com.au
www.csenergy.com.au "

Don't give up on this issue SE Qld , if you allow 1 business to apply this kind of lighting solution, others will follow !
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2007, 07:31 PM
thunderchildobs
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Quote:
The lights are carefully positioned to shine directly on the stacks
I dont think so. Then why is the sky bright?

Quote:
We have used the best lighting technology currently
I dont think so. I have seen the lights, and there mounting and complete lack of shielding. I would hate to see the worst technology.

Please complain to CSEngery EnergyInfo@csenergy.com.au
or email to the Queensland Times letters letters@qt.com.au

If you do write, please let me know

Brendan
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