Nuclear War

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Why am i imagining the internal wars and chicanery that would go on to be leader of that government :-)
Andrew

Should be not problem it is to be either me or my off spring.
Alex

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Anyway, point being, I fully understand that I am not likely to get close to an accurate perception of history.. I just chew on it for my own personal entertainment.

... and the entertainment and enlightenment of many others, me thinks

[xelasnave]

Clive.......And so what is our measure of the elusive and perhaps hidden truth.
The only truth is one can not know it all.
We can assemble a group of experts yet they may all be blind or to the point had their focus drawn to where their arguments are still nevertheless far from a truth they now all believe they have identified for scholarly debate.
Knowing you don't know places one in a lonely place however not necessarily closer to the truth.
And this may be because there are many truths that exist without competition.
Alex

[clive milne]

Alex.. I look it from a slightly different perspective.

I read all sources with scepticism... the most valuable information can be defined as 'that which is not true'. It is in essence the application of the scientific method to history... the rest is supposition.

For example... dare I raise the dreaded 'Mary Celeste' of forum banter - I don't have to elucidate a theory of my own, but the fact that half a dozen or so of that infamous group of hijackers (who cannot be referred to directly) were protesting their innocence on september 12th, tells me that the official 'history' in the public narrative is NOT entirely factual. ....and we'll leave it there.

I remember a detective friend of mine telling me... criminals get caught through the inconsistencies in their lies.

The thought process I am referring to is beautifully demonstrated, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKA4w2O61Xo

It's a very powerful mental tool.

[clive milne]

Anyhoo... in a "completely unrelated" story on the page of history marked 1954 ... As part of a false flag operation, a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American, and British-owned civilian targets, cinemas, libraries and American educational centers. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" The operation caused no casualties among the population, but did cost the lives of four operatives: two cell members who committed suicide after being captured; and two operatives who were tried, convicted, and executed by Egypt.

The operation ultimately became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon was forced to resign as a consequence of the incident. Before Lavon's resignation, the incident had been euphemistically referred to in Israel as the "Unfortunate Affair" or "The Bad Business" (Hebrew: העסק הביש‎‎, HaEsek HaBish). After Israel publicly denied any involvement in the incident for 51 years, the surviving agents were officially honored in 2005 by being awarded certificates of appreciation by Israeli President Moshe Katzav.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Every time I read one of these threads, it occurs to me that George Orwell had a better understanding of power and politics than any commentator or expert that I've ever heard of.
Even in just one book, 1984, he discussed:

- CCTV (everywhere)
- Thought police (18c amongst other guises)
- Emmanuel Goldstein (certain viewpoints are allowed to be hated, others aren't)
- False flag operations (the increase in 'rocket attacks' leading up to hate week)
- Inner and outer party members (political and business circles of influence)
- The ministry of truth (manipulation of the news)
- New speak (political correctness)

I'm sure there are dozens more. The man was a genius.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Every time I read one of these threads, it occurs to me that George Orwell had a better understanding of power and politics than any commentator or expert that I've ever heard of.
. The man was a genius.

I suspect he was simply a librarian who one day mistakenly put the operating manual on a shelf in the fiction section.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Watch the following explosions.. I don't make any claim with respect to what caused them, other than that these do not look like Jdams to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTE_Eshm2xw

Interesting how false news became prominet after the US election.

Of course, it is far more reasonable to think that a strike on an ammunition depot is actually a tactical nuclear strike...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNZYSC0twiA

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

Every time I read one of these threads, it occurs to me that George Orwell had a better understanding of power and politics than any commentator or expert that I've ever heard of.
Even in just one book, 1984, he discussed:

- CCTV (everywhere)
- Thought police (18c amongst other guises)
- Emmanuel Goldstein (certain viewpoints are allowed to be hated, others aren't)
- False flag operations (the increase in 'rocket attacks' leading up to hate week)
- Inner and outer party members (political and business circles of influence)
- The ministry of truth (manipulation of the news)
- New speak (political correctness)

I'm sure there are dozens more. The man was a genius.

He was more 'observant' than 'genius'. Apart from the CCTV (which is only a modest sci-fi projection), everything else was fact dressed up as fiction. It's no mistake that Big Brother looked like Stalin and Goldstein looked like Trotsky (whose real name was Bronstein). In his early writings (eg Down and Out in Paris and London) he certainly sided with the poor but it wasn't until after he fought with the international brigades in the Spanish civil war that he really developed his political position. By good luck he wound up fighting with the Trotskyist POUM and received a political grounding from them (see Homage to Catalonia). He never rose to any great heights as a revolutionary theoretician but he was a great writer.

He was convinced that, just as the first world war had precipitated the Russian revolution (and other unsuccessful workers' uprisings), the second war would herald a socialist revolution in England (see The Lion and the Unicorn - Socialism and the English Genius). He wanted to warn against the Stalinisation of that revolution and so wrote Animal Farm which was a thinly veiled history of the demise of the Russian revolution. In 1948 when he wrote 1984 he still felt a revolution was coming. He therefore strengthened his message by projecting Stalinism into the future and amplifying all its worst features. He was aware that this book would be misunderstood by some and misused by others to slander socialism but considered his message so important that he published it anyway (this is all stated plainly in his collected correspondence). Sadly he was better at predicting the fate of his book than predicting English history.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

He was aware that this book would be misunderstood by some and misused by others to slander socialism but considered his message so important that he published it anyway (this is all stated plainly in his collected correspondence). Sadly he was better at predicting the fate of his book than predicting English history.

Interesting. I've never heard of it being used to slander socialism, but very often used to slander political correctness, dirty power politics and the nanny state.

I do love the often posted pic of a cctv camera right in front of a sign about Mr. Orwell.

The big brother image in the black and white movie resembles Tony Abbott, though they changed the image in the later film.

[clive milne]

David,
Thanks for posting that background info on Orwell... interesting stuff.

It's easy with the benefit of hindsight, but it might not be too unkind to suggest that he was not entirely correct with respect to the root cause of the Russian revolution.

I guess he was not to know that Lenin & Trotsky were cat's paw's of Jacob Schiff (representing some powerful international financial interests) through the banking house of Kuhn Loeb.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

David,
Thanks for posting that background info on Orwell... interesting stuff.

It's easy with the benefit of hindsight, but it might not be too unkind to suggest that he was not entirely correct with respect to the root cause of the Russian revolution.

I guess he was not to know that Lenin & Trotsky were cat's paw's of Jacob Schiff (representing some powerful international financial interests) through the banking house of Kuhn Loeb.

I'm not aware of Orwell commenting on the root cause of the Russian revolution.

Questions: Why wouldn't international finance side with the Provisional Government, which was made up of bankers and other capitalists?

If that wasn't to their liking why not gain control over the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionaries? After all, they had the majority in the soviets after February and, lacking any sound political analysis, would have been much easier to influence.

If L&T were under the control of international finance why did they act against its interests?

If international finance (or the Germans, to cite another conspiracy theory) were supporting the Bolsheviks why were they so chronically short of money?

Are you suggesting the L&T instigated the February revolution while one was in Switzerland and the other in New York?

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Kal

Interesting how false news became prominet after the US election.

Of course, it is far more reasonable to think that a strike on an ammunition depot is actually a tactical nuclear strike...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNZYSC0twiA

False news has been around for as long as I can remember and that takes us back at least three years.

As you get older you start to understand how it works.
Don't be distracted by front page news the real news is usually hidden somewhere past page three.
If something big is happening it is often there to hide something that would be big news if it were not for the front page distraction.

Consider all possibilities but do not fall in love with a single one.
Alex

[xelasnave]

How many bombs would be used in a nuclear war?
One tends to think only a couple but I expect you would need one or two per city maybe more.
I suppose there exists somewhere a chart showing what is needed to destroy each country on the planet.
Alex

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

How many bombs would be used in a nuclear war?
One tends to think only a couple but I expect you would need one or two per city maybe more.
I suppose there exists somewhere a chart showing what is needed to destroy each country on the planet.
Alex

Google: 'Samson Option'.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Google: 'Samson Option'.

I already don't know about it.
Alex

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

If something big is happening it is often there to hide something that would be big news if it were not for the front page distraction.

Consider all possibilities but do not fall in love with a single one.
Alex

Forget looking to page 3, if you want the truth you must look at multiple news agencies in the modern world. When I wanted to know what was happening in the Ukraine for example I would read opposing propaganda from the USA, Russia, Britain, Iran, and try and make my own determination. We live in a world where one news agencies terrorist is another news agencies freedom fighter.

But among all the opposing propaganda you will still have the conspiracy theorists and they are their own force altogether.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

How many bombs would be used in a nuclear war?
One tends to think only a couple but I expect you would need one or two per city maybe more.
I suppose there exists somewhere a chart showing what is needed to destroy each country on the planet.
Alex

I think that book is still lost somewhere on the film set of Dr Strangelove.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Kal

Forget looking to page 3, if you want the truth you must look at multiple news agencies in the modern world. When I wanted to know what was happening in the Ukraine for example I would read opposing propaganda from the USA, Russia, Britain, Iran, and try and make my own determination. We live in a world where one news agencies terrorist is another news agencies freedom fighter.

But among all the opposing propaganda you will still have the conspiracy theorists and they are their own force altogether.

Yes we are lucky that news is available from many places.
So what is really going on in the Ukraine?
Alex

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Every time I've been involved in something (or had a good friend that was), the news did not accurately reflect the true story.
I don't watch the TV news any more.