Fidel Castro dead at 90

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by gary

Alex,

You may well enjoy the pace of life there.

Even in cities such as Cienfuegos, a city of some 150,000, the predominant
form of public transport is still horse and carts.

I've never seen so many horses.

In country towns like Vinales in the west - where they grow the
cigar tobacco - everyone has a front verandah with rocking chairs.
Folk sit on their porch in the evenings, rock in their chairs, talk and
watch the world go by.

Now and then a real cowboy goes riding by and tips his hat.

I sounds like the lifestyle of the Cubans and the Amish have much in common, though they arrived there in very different ways. Strange the way life turns.

I'd also like a more relaxed lifestyle and greater sense of community but without losing the useful modern conveniences (eg fridge, internet). I also know we have to reduce our usage of private cars but I'm not sure hayburners are the way forward.

[gary]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

I also know we have to reduce our usage of private cars but I'm not sure hayburners are the way forward.

Hi David,

If and when the embargo is lifted, I am concerned about the fate of all those
horses.

It would be nice to think they would all be put out to pasture but alas ....

Here is a photo (not mine) of a typical horse-drawn vehicle in Cuba which
act as busses in many of the towns and cities outside of Havana -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._transport.jpg

The island, of course, is famous for its old cars which are ubiquitous,
particularly in the cities and towns.

Get out of town on the four to eight lane autopista's and you just about
have the road to yourself. The Cubans can't afford the price of the fuel.

I found someone's short YouTube (not mine) of driving on a Cuban autopista,
which provides a good sense of what it is like -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUPG8QlvtBo

The country operates on government sanctioned and controlled car
pooling and hitchhiking.

In the towns and cities and under the overpasses on the autopista, groups
of people queue at signposted hitchhiking points. A uniformed official
is on hand to wave down any government owned car, truck or tractor and they
are obliged to take passengers. Private vehicles can charge a small fee.
So they pre-date Uber in private taxis.
Tourist rental vehicles are exempted from the legal obligation to provide lifts
but I got waved down once by an official and was kindly asked if I could
give a lift to someone trying to get back home about 120km away.

Here is a photo of an official hitchhiking point -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transp...ling_point.jpg

So getting to and from work, particularly for workers in rural areas that
might need to travel considerable distances, can take a considerable
part of the day while you wait for a lift.

There is a shortage of busses and it is not uncommon to see dozens
of people in the back of an open truck. Some of the busses they do
have are strange-looking things with a prime mover and an articulated
passenger section in tow.

Here is a link to a photo (not mine) of the type of articulated Cuban bus I am
talking about -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana...aHavane_02.jpg

Venezuela is Cuba's closest ally and after the fall of the Soviet Union
Cuba had been heavily reliant on subsidized oil out of Venezuela.

When Venezuela was flush with cash and oil, the late Hugo Chavez could
afford to provide his socialist comrades in Cuba with something like 4%
of Venezuela's oil output. The Cubans use it not only for transportation
but for electricity production.

Now Venezuela has its own problems, with falling crude output and giant
financial woes including hyper-inflation, oil exports to Cuba have plummeted.

Though petrol stations are few and far between in Cuba, last year I had no trouble
with the supply of petrol but it was pricey, probably around AUD1.75 a litre.
Similar to the price you might come across in outback Australia but thankfully
the road distances are much shorter.

Cuba has enormous areas devoted to sugar production and in some ways
it is surprising that they have not turned to large scale ethanol production
to help meet their demands.

The rusting remains of many once large sugar mills are testimony to the
lack of capital investment and buyers for the sugar.

Suffice to say high quality rum is cheap and the country must have a lot of
mint leaves under harvest to supply the vast amount of mojitos that are
drunk there every day.

[Stefan Buda]

Originally Posted by aussietrooper

castro was a murderous dictator. Whilst no death should ever be celebrated, few who managed to escape his regime would be mourning.
It seems there are so many trendys who seem to like the 'aura' of people like him (how long until castro starts appearing on fashionable t-shirts?), but have absolutely no idea what he actually did.
Good luck to anyone who was gay, or tried to actually have some say in how they lived their life.
You don't get hundreds of thousands trying to escape a country that has a benevolent ruler.

+1

[netwolf]

This is one of my favourite songs. There is much merit in what is being said.

In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria.
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets.
MIster Krushchev said, "We will bury you."
I don't subscribe to this point of view.
It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too.
How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
There is no monopoly on common sense
On either side of the political fence.
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology.
Believe me when I say to you,
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president?
There's no such thing as a winnable war,
It's a lie we don't believe anymore.
Mister Reagan says, "We will protect you."
I don't subscribe to this point of view.
Believe me when I say to you,
I hope the Russians love their children too
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology.
But what might save us, me and you,
Is if the Russians love their children too

it is interesting how these lyrics even relate to contemporary times.


or as Frank Herbert put it, fear is the mind killer I must not fear.
In today's world politicians seem to speak only to our fears instead of our aspirations hopes and dreams.

[clive milne]

And this one by Jackson Browne:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4fNW6CaWts

"Lives In The Balance"

I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
Where a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war

And there's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs

On the radio talk shows and the T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends
These governments killing their own?
Or the people who finally can't take any more
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone
There are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire

There's a shadow on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names

They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us every thing from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die
And there are lives in the balance
There are people under fire
There are children at the cannons
And there is blood on the wire

[bojan]

Originally Posted by netwolf

..... if the Russians love their children too

They do.

[Astrophe (John)]

Castro was definitely not the worst Marxist dictator there ever was. That honour goes to Stalin or Mao Tse-tung (Mao Zedong) who were both responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of their own citizens. Marxism, has to be the greatest failure there has ever been in designing economic/social systems for humanity. Nazism would be a close second.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by Astrophe

Castro was definitely not the worst Marxist dictator there ever was. That honour goes to Stalin or Mao Tse-tung (Mao Zedong) who were both responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of their own citizens. Marxism, has to be the greatest failure there has ever been in designing economic/social systems for humanity. Nazism would be a close second.

Ohh... I don't know.. I think capitalism deserves space on the same showroom floor.. as does fundamentalism, ESPECIALLY Zionism. (arguably the most dangerous political ideology of the current era)

All of which are simply different flavours of inhumane, greed driven, tinsel wrapped, narcissistic - 'critical thinking fail'.

[netwolf]

John sure the other systems you have not mentioned have killed everyone else's citizens. Rule of the people by the people for the people, but wait which people ? any why would the majority be always right?

[netwolf]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Ohh... I don't know.. I think capitalism deserves space on the same showroom floor.. Zionism, also.

4 flavours of inhumane, greed driven, tinsel wrapped, narcissistic idiocy.

Capitalism just kills everyone slowly. The silent killer consumerism

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by clive milne

Ohh... I don't know.. I think capitalism deserves space on the same showroom floor.. Zionism, also.

4 flavours of inhumane, greed driven, tinsel wrapped, narcissistic idiocy.

Capitalism has been around for a lot longer than either Marxism or Nazism, but I can't agree that capitalism is in the same boat as the other two. When you add up the dismal toll of deaths attributed to Marxism, alone.....Stalin: 20M+...Mao: 30-50M+....we begin to see the true and terrifying face of this debauched social/economic system.

[Astrophe (John)]

Originally Posted by netwolf

John sure the other systems you have not mentioned have killed everyone else's citizens. Rule of the people by the people for the people, but wait which people ? any why would the majority be always right?

Plainly, the majority is not always right, but representative democracy is the best system we have been able to devise, so far.

[gary]

Cuban history provides a sobering reminder that it is not always the
dictators that you need to worry about but sometimes the collective will of the people.

As reported in the New York Times on January 20th 1959, the people of
Oriente Province, recalling the terror of Baptista's army, "approved the
firing squads".

Originally Posted by New York Times, January 21st 1959

SANTIAGO DE CUBA, Jan. 20 (AP) -- In this birthplace of Cuba's revolution, citizens nod with satisfaction at the sound of the firing squads.

So come the revolution, it could be one's fellow townsfolk who calls
for you to be the first to go in front of the wall.

Depending on which side of the gun you find yourself on, it will be
deemed either mob rule or democracy.

[xelasnave]

I think Marx believed England would see the first communist revolution and frankly if it had occured there it may have been much different.
The market economy must be replaced in time.
Having multiple models of everything will not be sustainable so the market economy will need to be cancelled.However it will be the market economy that forces such upon us.
Alex