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  #41  
Old 30-07-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by astroron View Post
So if it was two men passing the ball,would have that made any difference
It wouldn't.
There is no "mechanism" behind the two electron interaction that can possibly be analogous to two persons exchanging a ball.
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  #42  
Old 30-07-2013, 08:24 PM
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+1 for Saviour

Obviously he has to 'dumb it down' for the masses. If he did these programs at his level of intellect most, if not all of us here, would be reaching for dictionaries and particle physics textbooks with little hope of following the conversation at his level.

Brian makes what 95% think to be a boring topic, very enjoyable.

He is not trying to convert the masses but if the programs turn a few minds to sciences instead of contract law etc surely that is a good thing.
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  #43  
Old 30-07-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by astroron View Post
So if it was two men passing the ball,would have that made any difference
Was the illustration wrong or irrelevant in your opinion Steven?

Albert Einstein was also very prolific in his popularizing of physics and at times was also frowned up on by Mainstream Science.
He used props to demonstrate his point.
Cheers
Ron,

At very best the analogy shows that similar charges repel as shown by Girl B recoiling after she receives the photon. So basically the analogy is a demonstration of electrostatic repulsion not Quantum Electrodynamics or QED.
The analogy misses out on a fundamental point, why the photon is created in the first place which is the heart of QED.

Here lies the problem, the creation of photons is so counter-intuitive that it is virtually impossible to illustrate with an analogy.
Its the case of having to rely on the power of mathematics to explain the creation of photons.

Physicists take the mathematics and break it down into pictorial representations known as Feynman diagrams. To the untrained eye these diagrams look like squiggly drawings but contain a wealth of information about particle interactions.

These drawings are about the closest one can get to analogies.

While they simplify the job for the theoretical physicist, Feymann diagrams doesn't make life any easier to explain QED to the man in the street.
For example a positron is an electron with a positive charge but in a Feynman diagram they are electrons moving backwards in time.
While this makes sense to a particle physicist, the man in the street would probably see it as science fiction at work.

To set the record straight, in case there was any misunderstanding, I actually applaud the efforts of Cox and co. by taking science to the masses.
The problem is they are walking on a tightrope by making the science understandable to the public at the possible risk of misrepresenting it.

Regards

Steven

Last edited by sjastro; 30-07-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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  #44  
Old 30-07-2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
Ron,

At very best the analogy shows that similar charges repel as shown by Girl B recoiling after she receives the photon. So basically the analogy is a demonstration of electrostatic repulsion not Quantum Electrodynamics or QED.
The analogy misses out on a fundamental point, why the photon is created in the first place which is the heart of QED.

Here lies the problem, the creation of photons is so counter-intuitive that it is virtually impossible to illustrate with an analogy.
Its the case of having to rely on the power of mathematics to explain the creation of photons.

Physicists take the mathematics and break it down into pictorial representations known as Feynman diagrams. To the untrained eye these diagrams look like squiggly drawings but contain a wealth of information about particle interactions.

These drawings are about the closest one can get to analogies.

While they simplify the job for the theoretical physicist, Feymann diagrams doesn't make life any easier to explain QED to the man in the street.
For example a positron is an electron with a positive charge but in a Feynman diagram they are electrons moving backwards in time.
While this makes sense to a particle physicist, the man in the street would probably see it as science fiction at work.

To set the record straight, in case there was any misunderstanding, I actually applaud the efforts of Cox and co. by taking science to the masses.
The problem is they are walking on a tightrope by making the science understandable to the public at the possible risk of misrepresenting it.

Regards

Steven
Thank you Steven
I will shut up now,as I really can't add anything more to this thread.
I for one will keep on watching his programs and try to get as much as possible out of what he says
Cheers
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  #45  
Old 31-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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I find his programs very enjoyable.

I think he is doing a great job along with all the other presenters past and present.
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  #46  
Old 31-07-2013, 10:15 AM
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I was forced by my supervisor to give a twenty five minute talk with five minutes of questions. It had to be on a fundamental problem that impinged on our work.

I chose to talk about signal to noise of x-ray crystallographic data of protein molecules and how it's maximisation was critical to elucidating the solution.

Not one person in the audience was below degree standard in fact most had PhD's in science.

There were about 150 people in the audience. I started and it was obvious to me that my dumbing down of the talk did not go far enough! There was a sea of faces with eyes that were glazed over. I persisted hoping they may get it eventually.

I knew I had lost them completely when there was not one question! My supervisor then asked a pertinent question to get things going. I answered him and it was obvious he did not even get what I was talking about!

It is very difficult when you live eat and breathe an esoteric set of concepts for many years to explain them to others.

I overheard one senior scientist say on his way out 'I did not understand anything that Bert said but he must be a very smart bloke'. I wondered how he could even begin to judge, with such a paucity of any knowledge of what I was doing!

I will let you work out how difficult it is to address an audience that is relatively scientifically totally ignorant.

Bert
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  #47  
Old 31-07-2013, 10:17 AM
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Here, let me quote an average joe-blow off the street - "Oh? he's got sexy chicks on his show? Ok I might watch it then!"

Onya Brian!
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  #48  
Old 31-07-2013, 12:17 PM
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I still remember the Irish Comedien Dara O Brien descibing on a jodcast how he had to keep pulling Cox back from going proto nerd during one of the UK's Stargazing live shows the other year. I love that expression.

The likes of Cox engaging with the public on these uber outreach events, whether its a one off show or a high budget tv series, have a huge impact on their audiences. Apparently telescope sales trend big time on Amazon whilst the star gazing live shows are on..

Each telescope buyer in my view is a budding scientist and we need more of 'em. I was stunned into silence by my first encounter with a creationalist stating if you cant see the oort cloud, how can it possibly exist...sob...
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  #49  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:47 PM
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Mmm I will have to think about that one
Ok do I want to play with strings or play in the sand and blow bubbles
Or maybe jump out of coconut trees with Einstein to test the gravity theories
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  #50  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen View Post

Or maybe jump out of coconut trees with Einstein to test the gravity theories
Dropping apples is far less dangerous.

Regards

Steven
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  #51  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
I still remember the Irish Comedien Dara O Brien descibing on a jodcast how he had to keep pulling Cox back from going proto nerd during one of the UK's Stargazing live shows the other year. I love that expression.

The likes of Cox engaging with the public on these uber outreach events, whether its a one off show or a high budget tv series, have a huge impact on their audiences. Apparently telescope sales trend big time on Amazon whilst the star gazing live shows are on..

Each telescope buyer in my view is a budding scientist and we need more of 'em. I was stunned into silence by my first encounter with a creationalist stating if you cant see the oort cloud, how can it possibly exist...sob...
It is Dara Ó Briain and he sometimes falls back on rational science on Mock the Week to show the comedians he is still rational and in some sort of control of their idiocy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHqOG8p0Lkc

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avfac4zI8l4

Not safe for work!

Bert
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  #52  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
Dropping apples is far less dangerous.
But it can lead to rash conclusions

Cheers
Steffen.
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