I am with Peter on the matter of the lack of ongoing training, but there are so many things that we can do ourselves, how many of us practice emergency stops, swerve control, wet road braking, peripheral vision exercises etc. Yes a lot of us have been driving for years but the enviroment changes daily.
Greg.
I'd love to see an aerial shot of this intersection! There could be a wormhole in the centre eating up the road. Classic!
It's been 10 years since I was there but I think this is it. Unfortunately the lane markings aren't visible on the sat image or on street view but the markings on he centre island are suggestive. And, no, I wasn't driving on the centre island.
I think all novice drivers should have to attend an advanced driving course, where they could be taught emergency breaking, skid control wet weather control, etc.
Many years ago when I obtained my CAMS general competition licence, these things were covered comprehensively in the first day of the 2 day course.
Looking at most of the fatal crashes involving young people, they are driving too fast with no idea how to regain control once they lose it.
As for auto versus manual for teaching, the great majority of cars sold now are automatic, and I guess most people will now spend their whole motoring lives driving an auto. My current car is not even available as a manual!
[QUOTE=Astro_Bot;993447]When they're conventionally oriented - i.e. a four-way intersection at roughly 90 degrees to each other, then they work pretty well, or at least they did when the instructions were simple: left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead, with the usual "give way to the right" rule, and since traffic goes clockwise, then traffic already in the roundabout is always coming from the right. Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout.
I'm having a very hard time trying to visualize this.
I'll ignore the obvious error regarding "right lane to turn right"; no vehicle on a roundabout turns right. They would be going the wrong way.
The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.
If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the right lane was unable to change or cross lanes, that vehicle would never be able to exit the roundabout, since all exits are on the left.
If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane was compelled to leave the roundabout at the first exit, then vehicles in the right lane could leave the roundabout without changing/crossing lanes, however your scenario of a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane and going straight ahead (I'll presume you mean taking the second exit) would then be incorrect.
I can see how it could be one or the other, but not both.
When they're conventionally oriented - i.e. a four-way intersection at roughly 90 degrees to each other, then they work pretty well, or at least they did when the instructions were simple: left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead, with the usual "give way to the right" rule, and since traffic goes clockwise, then traffic already in the roundabout is always coming from the right. Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout.
I'm having a very hard time trying to visualize this.
I'll ignore the obvious error regarding "right lane to turn right"; no vehicle on a roundabout turns right. They would be going the wrong way.
The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.
Regards
Herb
The big point of the roundabout is that it allows cars from minor roads to make Right turns safely.
Quite correct Peter W. A difference of 20 KPH to the flow of traffic is dangerous. Whether it be faster or slower, it causes confusion.
Yesterday I drew alongside a learner with L plates. Both at the front . Both of us about to negotiate a right turn. Double lanes going right. I was on the right (or inside lane.)
I anticipate and expect mistakes by others on the road. And just as well.
Light changed to green. I watched the learner move forward. I'm thinking, "Will she do it?" and yes she cut in front of me crossed into my lane as she was negotiating the corner. (I should say she cut the corner) The (Professional) instructor must have corrected her. As the car was jerked violently back toward the left lane.
Also the car stopped, straddling the line. I had enough clearance to then get past.
Checked the rear vision mirrors and there was a host of confusion. She had brought about twenty cars to a standstill on a green light.
I blame the "pro" instructor, who was a woman as well.
Another incident: License tester instructed the young driver to turn right at the approaching round-a-bout.
Driver cut hard right in the wrong direction against traffic. The shortest way to turn right at a round-a-bout instead of going around the island.
I'm having a very hard time trying to visualize this.
That's obvious, and the nub of the problem regarding the rest of your comments.
Quote:
I'll ignore the obvious error regarding "right lane to turn right"; no vehicle on a roundabout turns right. They would be going the wrong way.
No error. Turn right at the intersection, going clockwise around the roundabout. (I even said traffic goes clockwise ... not that I had to ... or that any sane person would think otherwise).
Quote:
The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.
What the? I was expanding on an opinion.
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If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the right lane was unable to change or cross lanes, that vehicle would never be able to exit the roundabout, since all exits are on the left.
What the? I'm (obviously!) referring to changing lanes without exiting, which I have seen people do. For example, someone enters in left lane, changes to right (inner) lane in order to turn right (at intersection) i.e. to take 3rd exit. I've seen the reverse as well. It's a dangerous practice and one that I recall my driving instructor being abundently clear about all those years ago. I added it merely to be more complete, entirely for my own satisfaction. And why the hell am I wasting my time explaining this to you?
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If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane was compelled to leave the roundabout at the first exit
I didn't say that.
Quote:
... then vehicles in the right lane could leave the roundabout without changing/crossing lanes, however your scenario of a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane and going straight ahead (I'll presume you mean taking the second exit) would then be incorrect.
I said "either lane to go straight ahead", i.e. left lane can leave at 1st or 2nd exists ... and my opinion was referring to two-lane, 4-way, conventionally-oriented (roughly 90 degree) roundabouts, and the point I was making was that those type of roundabouts were easier to understand under the old explanations/rules, which is how they were commonly described in traffic handbooks many years ago.
Welcome to IceInSpace, you're going to fit right in!
Note for everyone else: Yeah, I know, I obviously need a coffee break.
I blame the "pro" instructor, who was a woman as well.
Hey, Marty, that's a bit Abbotesque isn't it?
Cheers
Stuart
P.S. Now I've mentioned politics and cars in the same thread I expect a tirade of abuse and the thread to be locked. Damn, I've just mentioned a perceived bias in the application of the site TOCs, that's three. If I could just work in religion and race somehow...
I wouldn't say that many cars don't have ABS, I would think that a vast majority of cars on the road today have ABS.
So, you're right and you won't listen to any argument?
Might I ask if you've actually attended a driver training course?
Probably useless as you are always right, so the instructor couldn't teach you anything anyway. I can only say, open your mind, listen and learn, maybe, just maybe, there is a better way to teach people to drive.
I might also point out that the technique you are advocating, commonly known as threshold braking, is a difficult thing to get right, in an emergency situation even more so. It is probably beyond the capability of most drivers on the road, however experienced they are. I drive competitively, in a car built in the 1970's (but designed in the 60's), it doesn't have ABS, I lock brakes often, in this situation it is required, but on the road in an emergency, I now know to rely on the electronics, it is much better at it than I am.
In the pinnacle of motorsport, Formula One, the only reason that they don't have ABS was to increase the reliance on the skill of the drivers, equip any modern racecar with ABS and the drivers will go faster. These are the very best drivers.
Cheers
Stuart
Which part of motorcycle advocacy did you miss?
I do training in both riding and driving.
Like I said I will not enter into a debate over this.
Brake stomping is not the best thing to do in an emergency, particularly in a car with no abs.
Accident avoidance, anticipation, scanning, etc. ie ROAD AWARENESS not distractions.
Brake stomping is THE last resort and nothing more.
*shakes head*
Try riding a motorcycle and then see how much more road awareness you have around you.
You may have many assumptions about me that's up to you but I'll say this, rider driver training is something I do every 5 years or so.
We come not to just rely on the car's technology but on the total package.
did you cover the total package or the lowest common denominator?
I'd love to see an aerial shot of this intersection! There could be a wormhole in the centre eating up the road. Classic!
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Originally Posted by AstralTraveller
It's been 10 years since I was there but I think this is it. Unfortunately the lane markings aren't visible on the sat image or on street view but the markings on he centre island are suggestive. And, no, I wasn't driving on the centre island.
OK, I think this must be it and the situation is more complex than I remember. Lanes don't spiral in but on the south side a new lane appears on the inside. The roundabout is 2 lanes in places and 3 in others, just as some of the roads are 2 lanes and other 3. There is also a slip lane on the top left (nw) corner. If you work it out I think it is quite logical and it certainly worked in practice.
This reminds of an Irish joke.
To be consistent with Europe Ireland is going to switch to driving on the right hand side of the road. At midnight on the designated day all the cars will stop and move to the opposite side of the road, just as they did when Sweden changed sides. If that all goes smoothly a week later the trucks and buses will change too.
To be consistent with Europe Ireland is going to switch to driving on the right hand side of the road. At midnight on the designated day all the cars will stop and move to the opposite side of the road, just as they did when Sweden changed sides. If that all goes smoothly a week later the trucks and buses will change too.
There's a three-lane roundabout in Hobart with odd markings and some weirdness in traffic behaviour. The locals warned me about it when I was there some years ago. I'll see if I can find it on Google Maps ...
OK, enter these coordinates into Google Maps and press the search button, then zoom in where the green arrow is and switch to satellite photo:
Code:
-42.878001,147.330992
IIRC, there are traffic lights at points within the roundabout.
None, I wasn't talking about motorcycles, I'll freely admit to knowing 2/5 of FA about motorbikes.
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Like I said I will not enter into a debate over this.
Which you have now done, or at least you have continued to express your opinion, I wouldn't say argue your point as you don't provide any proof, just an opinion.
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Brake stomping is not the best thing to do in an emergency, particularly in a car with no abs.
Agreed, but like I've said a couple of times, a vast majority of cars on the road today HAVE got ABS. If you read what I initially wrote, I was saying that there has been a real shift in the technology available in newer cars, that this inclusion of technology means the driver can and should change the habits of a lifetime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Accident avoidance, anticipation, scanning, etc. ie ROAD AWARENESS not distractions.
Brake stomping is THE last resort and nothing more.
*shakes head*
What I'm trying to get through to your shaking head is that IF you have ABS, braking heavily is the first AND last resort once in a dangerous situation. I mentioned nothing about awareness, though, of course, much of the discussion at the driver training course was about just this. Wanna talk about distractions, how's having to look at your speedo every couple of seconds to ensure that you haven't drifted 3 kmh over the speed limit to avoid being fined?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Try riding a motorcycle and then see how much more road awareness you have around you.
I'm dangerous enough in a car, I will donate my organs, but I don't want to hasten the act.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas
You may have many assumptions about me that's up to you but I'll say this, rider driver training is something I do every 5 years or so.
We come not to just rely on the car's technology but on the total package.
did you cover the total package or the lowest common denominator?
I have made no assumptions about you at all, other than perhaps a little stubbornness. I was not responsible for the DT course, as I said it was run by professionals, experienced professionals. They did both theory and practical exercises, worked out experience levels from the first couple of tests and then catered to each individual driver by altering the test conditions, the easiest way was to make you do the test at a faster speed, but they did set distances differently for each car and driver.
This is my favourite roundabout of all the countries I have been to.
Last time I was in Paris with my son we watched as one small car went around the roundabout 5 times in order to get to their exit.
When you enter this roundabout your motor vehicle insurance is suspended until you exit the roundabout.
The right of way is determined by how loud your horn is and how brazen you are about pushing your luck.
During our time in Paris we could not find a single car that did not have some accident damage.
Just regarding some of the terminology on braking methods with ABS used by Nikolas and Stuart ..................
"Stomping" on the brakes is never recommended .... however, what Stuart said was "press" on the pedal as hard as possible ..... this is absolutely the best way to bring an ABS equipped car to a stop.
Although most ABS systems will cope with the 'fluid shock' of someone smashing their foot onto the pedal, the far better way is to use a fast, hard and sustained "press" of the pedal as firmly as you can, the ABS electronics will modulate the fluid pressure to release the wheel should the ABS sensor indicate that the wheel has locked.
Without ABS the driver has to do this modulation to allow the brake to release enough to prevent locking up. Without ABS it is even more important to use a pressing action rather than hitting the pedal too sharply.
+1 for the advanced training ..... I think that all learners should learn to drive in manual transmission vehicles, they should be taught proper skid control, emergency braking and avoidance and defensive driving tactics.
But then I also think that there ought to be a mandatory course for anyone wanting to tow anything with their vehicle, anyone driving at less than 90% of the posted speed limit on dry roads should have to pull over regularly to allow other traffic through, speed limits should be raised on highways to reduce the fatigue factor of long drives at a sleep inducing 95kmh behind some Victorian caravan owner going to Queensland for the winter ...............
Oh and NSW Learner driver's should be allowed to drive at the posted 100 on highways. It would be safer for everyone. (If the learner is so inexperienced that they are not able to do this safely the responsible adult should be behind the wheel instead)
"That's obvious, and the nub of the problem regarding the rest of your comments."
Now, now, no need to be rude.
"No error. Turn right at the intersection, going clockwise around the roundabout. (I even said traffic goes clockwise ... not that I had to ... or that any sane person would think otherwise)."
This is what you previously wrote;
"left lane to turn left, right lane to turn right and either lane to go straight ahead..."
All vehicles enter and exit a roundabout on the left, there are no right turns. Repeat after me, NO RIGHT TURNS.
The rest of your explanation cannot be correct.
"What the? I was expanding on an opinion."
Ok, my bad, I should have said your opinion is incorrect.
"What the? I'm (obviously!) referring to changing lanes without exiting"
This is what you wrote;
"Edit: I forgot the most important rule for making roundabouts work: never change lanes in a roundabout."
Nothing (obviously!) there regarding exiting a roundabout.
"For example, someone enters in left lane, changes to right (inner) lane in order to turn right (at intersection) i.e. to take 3rd exit. I've seen the reverse as well. It's a dangerous practice and one that I recall my driving instructor being abundently clear about all those years ago. I added it merely to be more complete, entirely for my own satisfaction. And why the hell am I wasting my time explaining this to you?"
Well, you're not explaining anything, really. You've inserted entirely pointless drivel that has nothing to do with what you or I said said previously. And in consideration of your feelings, I'll treat that as a rhetorical question.
Anyway, my final point;
If a vehicle entering the roundabout from the left lane was compelled to leave the roundabout at the first exit
"I didn't say that."
No, I did. Try and keep up. I used this as an example of why your original post was incorrect.
"..........and the point I was making was that those type of roundabouts were easier to understand under the old explanations/rules"
But obviously not by you.
"Welcome to IceInSpace, you're going to fit right in!"
I doubt it. I can't even imagine being as rude, insulting and defensive as you.
"Note for everyone else: Yeah, I know, I obviously need a coffee break."
No, you need a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down.
This is my favourite roundabout of all the countries I have been to.
Last time I was in Paris with my son we watched as one small car went around the roundabout 5 times in order to get to their exit.
When you enter this roundabout your motor vehicle insurance is suspended until you exit the roundabout.
The right of way is determined by how loud your horn is and how brazen you are about pushing your luck.
During our time in Paris we could not find a single car that did not have some accident damage.
Try Moscow.
They just SHOVE their way around - survival of the fittest. It was a white knuckle experience EVERY time I went there, but I did learn how to city drive well! I still do it in Brisbane
Horns are for wimps in Moscow - road rule is determined by how far and aggressively you change lanes etc.