Can't believe what I saw on the train tonight...

[rat156]

Originally Posted by Lee

Funny how the news channels censor the assailants faces, yet show us the victim isn't it....
I'm sure we are now paying for a smug little lefty legal aid lawyer or two to defend this trash....

So they shouldn't get a Defence at all??

Again, the opinions in this thread are worse than the incident.

[Octane (Humayun)]

It's emotion, Stuart.

I'm sure once you peel the emotion away, everyone in this thread would entitle these two bits of garbage wrapped in skin, the defense they're entitled to.

H

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by rat156

So they shouldn't get a Defence at all??

Again, the opinions in this thread are worse than the incident.

Their actions are indefensible, maybe you'd have a different opinion if you'd had been the victim, it's easy to sit on a fence an express an opinion when you may never have been the victim of unwarranted violence, they should have moved their feet after being asked plain and simple it's what decent people would do.

I have an can assure you IMO they have no justifiable reason except possibly moronic stupidity for what they did.

People cannot go through life blaming others for their actions we make our own decisions right or wrong and suffer the consequences thereof

[AstralTraveller (David)]

There appears to be confusion about the word 'defense'. Whether or not your actions are defensible you are still entitled to a legal defense when answering charges. It is then up to the judge/jury to decide whether the defense can be accepted. The defense barrister may also present arguments for extenuating or mitigating circumstances and, again, the judge may accept or reject such arguments. This is not some smug leftie approach but the basis for British jurisprudence for many many hundreds of years.

[Baddad (Marty)]

Well, some strong opinions flying here. I will add my bit.
The paid staff are instructed not to become involved physically in such incidents. They have to alert security.

The reason that it seems safer to travel by public transport in the USA is that the number of security personell is much greater. Each station has security as well as a number traveling on the trains.

Trevor, I agree, it is a different tune the victim plays. It is so easy to be on the fence with a poorly informed opinion.


Cheers

[rat156]

Originally Posted by bojan

In my time (and where I am from) they would have been thrown out of train at the first opportunity, by other passengers.

Originally Posted by multiweb

I agree with Bojan. A back hander and thrown out of the train by others would have been the go ...

Originally Posted by cfranks

... I like opening the doors and chucking them out! Preferably in a tunnel so they bounce between the wall and the train for a few iterations.

Originally Posted by Starless

This pair are simply polution in the human gene pool.
The human race is badly in need of culling.

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

There is plenty of very bad parenting that nothing is done about. Often the friends and relatives of the dysfunctional parents are dysfunctional themselves so the child abuse just seems normal. It's a very sad state of affairs at turning it around would take a lot of effort, even if the political will was there to do something. Meanwhile this situation is a drain on the rest of society.

Originally Posted by blink138

compulsive sterilisation seems to be the way forward (for some) does it not?

Originally Posted by Starless

I find myself agreeing with Astral Traveller.
I rekon you should have to pass an IQ test and apply
for a licence before you are allowed to breed.
This pair are obviously raised by ignorant morons.

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Sorry I would have thumped the *****es grabbed them by the hair and thrown them off the train into a gutter where they belong, people should stand up for themselves ...c

Originally Posted by DavidU

There would have been an "accident", I would have "accidentally" hit their nose with my elbow.
I would not put up with it.

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Sometimes when dealing with people that have no respect for others a good kick in the ass is what they deserve and will understand.

And these opinions are defensible?

More like the opinions of Sattler, Jones and Laws than those of reasonable caring members of society.

Get a grip people, these were two children behaving badly, who amongst us hasn't done something that we have regretted later? It doesn't need to be physical harm, causing someone mental anguish can be more serious, usually because the actions don't get reported and they don't result in a gash on the head.

These bigoted opinions and the usual bigoted opinions that are commonly held in concert with them cause more harm to individuals and society then this incident ever will.

But you defend your opinions.

That is indefensible!

Stuart

[rat156]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Their actions are indefensible, maybe you'd have a different opinion if you'd had been the victim, it's easy to sit on a fence an express an opinion when you may never have been the victim of unwarranted violence, they should have moved their feet after being asked plain and simple it's what decent people would do.

I have an can assure you IMO they have no justifiable reason except possibly moronic stupidity for what they did.

People cannot go through life blaming others for their actions we make our own decisions right or wrong and suffer the consequences thereof

So Trevor, you KNOW that I have not been a victim?

Is there such a thing as WARRANTED violence? It seems to some on this thread the answer is yes.

I also don't think I'm fence sitting, I have expressed a firm opinion that further violence in this case was not the answer.

I have also expressed some dismay at the continuation of the thread when such inflammatory statements (see above post) have been made.

Stuart

[Poita (Peter)]

I have to agree, that inciting another layer of violence doesn't make much sense. In this case the system seems to have worked pretty well, some people broke the law and were arrested. Crime and violence is down compared to 30 years ago by pretty much any measure. In fact compared to any time in history really. I've been a victim of group violence in Milsons Point Park of all places, but I still am not going to buy into the idea that the world is a more violent place than it used to be, or that individuals should set themselves up as Judge and Jury. What happened was appalling, but they were apprehended in the end.
Don't get sucked in by the media portraying 'the kids today', there are always some a**holes around, but way less than when I was a kid.
Have a listen to the TED talk I posted back a few pages, it is quite enlightening.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

.... they should have moved their feet after being asked plain and simple it's what decent people would do.

Decent people (and kids) would never put their feet on a seat, for the starters.

I do not defend what I wrote earlier, it was not even an opinion, as a matter of fact
However, IMO, the rat156's reaction to my post was not warranted and over the top - I only wrote what would have happened in my time (when I was young and when I was learning how to behave in public).
I do not have to mention that the idea of putting my feet on the opposite seat in a train wouldn't even appear in my mind.. perhaps because I learned my lessons when I was supposed to ?

[Gruffalo]

Advocating further violence is just chest beating and false bravado. Lots of internet heroes, but I also agree with Bojan completely - would not have happened when I was growing up either. The answer to this one would be to calmly "lodge" a complaint against these goths and that they should cease and desist from this unlawful activity. No violence, no touching even, just a brave voice objecting to the antics these 2 were playing. This would also shift the focus onto you, but hopefully there would be people willing to stand by you (not pretend not to notice like the guys in the video - disgusting male beahviour). You would also have witnesses. Just stand your ground, and the minute one of these morons decide to take any action of any nature OTHER than cease and desist, slap a citizen arrest against them, as they had already broken the law. Including any necessary force required for detention to bring to authorities - WITHOUT any violence against them.

[rat156]

Originally Posted by bojan

I do not defend what I wrote earlier, it was not even an opinion, as a matter of fact
However, IMO, the rat156's reaction to my post was not warranted and over the top - I only wrote what would have happened in my time (when I was young and when I was learning how to behave in public).
...

So what was your post if not an opinion? If it is a statement of fact then you HAVE physically ejected someone from a train (presumably whilst it was not moving), is this not violence?

How can my questioning of this implied action be "over the top"?

One one hand you are condemning violence by stating that you would have acted to throw them off the train, by doing so you advocate the same violence you condemn. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your, and other's, posts.

Only a couple of posts later than yours is the one advocating a "backhander" in agreement with your opinion. Can you not see that your expression of your "fact" has, in some way, incited a call to act violently?

Stuart

[Hans Tucker (Hans)]

Originally Posted by rat156

And these opinions are defensible?

More like the opinions of Sattler, Jones and Laws than those of reasonable caring members of society.

Get a grip people, these were two children behaving badly, who amongst us hasn't done something that we have regretted later? It doesn't need to be physical harm, causing someone mental anguish can be more serious, usually because the actions don't get reported and they don't result in a gash on the head.

These bigoted opinions and the usual bigoted opinions that are commonly held in concert with them cause more harm to individuals and society then this incident ever will.

But you defend your opinions.

That is indefensible!

Stuart

These kids aren't related or known to you are they Stuart? Whilst you have a justifiable issue with the level of violence expressed in this thread I have an issue with the way you brush this off as bad behaviour. This more than kids behaving badly, this is assault both of a paying commuter and a Police Officer which is criminal.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by rat156

So what was your post if not an opinion? If it is a statement of fact then you HAVE physically ejected someone from a train (presumably whilst it was not moving), is this not violence?

How can my questioning of this implied action be "over the top"?

One one hand you are condemning violence by stating that you would have acted to throw them off the train, by doing so you advocate the same violence you condemn. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your, and other's, posts.

Only a couple of posts later than yours is the one advocating a "backhander" in agreement with your opinion. Can you not see that your expression of your "fact" has, in some way, incited a call to act violently?

Stuart

Mate, you are over the top. Please cool down and read my post again.
And, I am NOT a hypocrite. I did NOT throw anyone off train, neither I ever stated that I should or did.
Be more careful when you are sticking labels on people..

[Astro_Bot]

While violence has always been around, and seems to be decreasing if anything, IMHO, there is a middle ground of inconsiderate, rude or arrogant behaviour that is increasing, and not just amongst teenagers.

I recall clearly as a kid the arguments of my elders regarding courtesy on public transport (or, indeed, anywhere) and giving up one's seat for an adult, any adult ... and most children did. Now that I'm an "elder", I hear that far less (as if people have given up that battle) and the concern is shifting to aggressive, hostile or other outright obnoxious behaviour.

I do think there is a problem, but my evidence is merely anecdotal.

[2stroke (Jay)]

Originally Posted by rat156

So Trevor, you KNOW that I have not been a victim?

Is there such a thing as WARRANTED violence? It seems to some on this thread the answer is yes.

I also don't think I'm fence sitting, I have expressed a firm opinion that further violence in this case was not the answer.

I have also expressed some dismay at the continuation of the thread when such inflammatory statements (see above post) have been made.

Stuart

People are just voicing there discussed. You are allowed to use justifiable force to defend yourself and others, this is the real world step outside your bubble. I just wonder if it was your wife or father would you still have the same opinion?

[Bassnut (Fred)]

We should all carry guns, preferably automatic.
I wish we we were more like the USA.
God bless you all.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by rat156

And these opinions are defensible?

More like the opinions of Sattler, Jones and Laws than those of reasonable caring members of society.

Well, I'll defend my comment. Bad parenting does tend to produce maladjusted children who in turn tend to produce maladjusted children. It's sad but true. Yes there are exceptions, some kids come good despite the odds being against them and some turn out bad even though they had a good upbringing, but if you don't thing bad parenting tends to produce bad children then you are saying that parents have no influence over their children.

I feel sorry for the kids, these two included. They clearly have issues that in this case have caused them grief and one fears for their future. Just yesterday I heard of a case where the defense barrister was pleading the case for a bloke found guilty of a violent crime (rape and/or murder). If the tendered facts are true he was routinely abused as a child, never shown any love, beaten up by his parents and raped by a neighbour. The term 'walking time bomb' was used and I can imagine it is pretty accurate. I don't have the figures at hand but I think we all know that many, probably most, perpetrators of child sexual abuse were themselves abused as children.

So, yes, I do think we have a problem with the production of a dysfunctional underclass, I think it is wrong, I think the kids are victims and I think it is a collective failure that this situation is allowed to perpetuate.

Sattler, Jones and Laws? Don't ever compare me to those scum again.

[GrahamL]

More than a touch of irony in that some of the views unfolding in this mess seem to advocate the same arrogant behaviour as on the train !!

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Well, I'll defend my comment. Bad parenting does tend to produce maladjusted children who in turn tend to produce maladjusted children. It's sad but true. Yes there are exceptions, some kids come good despite the odds being against them and some turn out bad even though they had a good upbringing, but if you don't thing bad parenting tends to produce bad children then you are saying that parents have no influence over their children.

I feel sorry for the kids, these two included. They clearly have issues that in this case have caused them grief and one fears for their future. Just yesterday I heard of a case where the defense barrister was pleading the case for a bloke found guilty of a violent crime (rape and/or murder). If the tendered facts are true he was routinely abused as a child, never shown any love, beaten up by his parents and raped by a neighbour. The term 'walking time bomb' was used and I can imagine it is pretty accurate. I don't have the figures at hand but I think we all know that many, probably most, perpetrators of child sexual abuse were themselves abused as children.

So, yes, I do think we have a problem with the production of a dysfunctional underclass, I think it is wrong, I think the kids are victims and I think it is a collective failure that this situation is allowed to perpetuate.

Sattler, Jones and Laws? Don't ever compare me to those scum again.

Here here!!

[Starless (Brian)]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

More than a touch of irony in that some of the views unfolding in this mess seem to advocate the same arrogant behaviour as on the train !!

I'm not advocating violent assault on an innocent commuter!

Simply suggesting that there are way to many people creating
children for no other reason than to collect Costello's baby
bonus.

This pair were obviously raised by idiots.