Returning from Belgium with Laser Pointers

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Merlin66

Peter,
As an Ex-President of the ASV and being a "lead by example" sort of guy, your solution wouldn't work. To be legal in Vic I need the permit.
(I could easily have "hidden" the lasers in the household effects....that's not the way to do it.)

Fair 'nuff, but I prefer Ghandi's civil disobedience paradigm to asinine laws.

[syousef]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Might as well ban pink elephants while you are at it.

I tried to mount a pink elephant to my new scope but the tube collapsed before I was able to use it to align to Alpha Cen. Is this covered under warranty? Should I pursue with the telescope manufacturer or the pink elephant breeder? ;-)

These laws unfortunately are going to be effective at banning casual idiots from waving around strong lasers. I don't think it's a good way to do it, but it will reduce incidents by reducing availability. It certainly won't eliminate them. A model that allows astronomical use is ideal - have a legit reason and you can own one. It should be like knives and fishing. If I'm on the train with a knife in NSW with no good reason, I can have the book thrown at me, but if it's part of a tackle kit and I'm on the way home, it is okay.

I really wish the cutoff was a bit higher - say 10mW or maybe even 20mW. I really REALLY wish the import process wasn't so hideously slow and expensive, and that it didn't jack up the price of lasers to hundreds of dollars when at least the 5mW ones use to be tens of dollars to own.

Those of you thinking of breaking the law should really get some perspective. It's all well and good to talk tough, but would you really want to deprive yourself of liberty, possibly your family of an income and basically ruin your future job prospects all so you can use a laser? You can point a telescope lots of other ways, even though I wish the lasers were still cheap and legal. It's really pointing out stars to other people that you completely miss out on, and most people are too scared to pull one out at a start party or public event these days. Do you really think a few people being stubborn is going to change the law? I'm very very glad I live in NSW and am a member of an approved club. I'd hate to destroy my one 5mW green pointer. But it ain't worth gaol time. I haven't heard of too many inmates that get to do astronomy.

I can't believe there are people within the astronomcial community that are publicly outspoken and supportive of such a ban. A telescope can blind someone or start a fire if not used correctly. (granted they aren't as portable). How would you like it if any telescope with a >50mm aperture were banned and subject to import restrictions? People really do seem to be too scared to speak up and say "hey this makes no sense". And if a person is complying out of fear they seem to take it out on the next guy if he hasn't complied - and not out of public concern.

I don't think any of the astronomy shops want to get involved in selling them because if a violation does occur it subjects them to scrutiny and because the laws can be confusing and ambiguous. I don't think they want to take on the burden of checking Astro club memberships in NSW for instance. Nevermind the bad publicity if someone used one of their lasers to blind someone or tag an aircraft.

Once upon a time people were pushing the boundaries of exploration. These days they're pushing the boundaries of red tape.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by syousef

........... A model that allows astronomical use is ideal - have a legit reason and you can own one. It should be like knives and fishing. ....................These days they're pushing the boundaries of red tape.

Excellent. I agree entirely with your well reasoned case.

By the way, I struggled to find *any* documented cases of laser eye injury in Australia. In one Monash University paper, they cite a 12 year old boy in 1999 apparently sustained retinal damage after playing with a laser pointer (begging the question WTF were his parents doing at the time??)

So that's one case: one wonders how many sports induced eye injuries have occured during the same 13 year interval....

The other observation I'd make: those that are dim enough to point a laser at an aircraft clearly can't be aware of the fact: the beam as seen form the other end points straight back to them with sublime accuracy.... a bit like leaving your business card after robbing a bank

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Guys,
I really don't want to discuss the rights or wrongs of the Victorian Government's decisions.....
Nor do I wish to debate the pro and cons of laser pointer controls....
I just wanted to make the point clearly to Victorian residents that a Chief Commissioner of Police Permit is required to legally have and use a laser pointer (over 1mW) in Victoria.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Merlin66

Guys,
I really don't want to discuss the rights or wrongs of the Victorian Government's decisions.....
Nor do I wish to debate the pro and cons of laser pointer controls....
I just wanted to make the point clearly to Victorian residents that a Chief Commissioner of Police Permit is required to legally have and use a laser pointer (over 1mW) in Victoria.

Yes. True enough. Paper also burns at 451 degrees F

[syousef]

*shrug* One less reason to come to Victoria...

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by syousef

*shrug* One less reason to come to Victoria...

Thankfully, sanity prevailed in WA, wherein the laser is classed as a controlled weapon, but you can still buy a 40mW over the counter here with no restrictions or permits required, although Health Department requirements have to be met, which is relatively easy anyway. Just have to have a legitimate use, as defined by the Act. Permits are only required for importation.

This is all the more interesting when you consider that WA has always had the toughest gun laws in Australia, so I am surprised they were not classed under these laws. Instead, our Government, in its wisdom, realised that there are some legitimate uses for lasers, so classed them under the same controlled weapon laws used for knives. Although I still think it would have been a better idea to class them under the firearms lawas, as those green light lasers sold here are weapon sights anyway.

Why can't these laws be uniform? Too bad if I want to move to the east. I would have to change various licences, eg. Shotfirer's (explosives) Permit, rifle licences, drivers licences and other state based licences that I currently hold. Oh well, the weathers better here anyway

[alocky (Andrew lockwood)]

Well, to be honest the weather here is pretty Melbournian at the moment.
Funny you should mention the WA Police. They've just approached the Perth Observatory regarding the sale of green laser pointers to the volunteers. Get ready for a change in policy.
You'll also be pleased to know the civilian currently managing the firearms branch thinks there are too many guns in WA. Make sure your safe complies to the letter of the law as it currently stands- not when you may have last been inspected.
Cheers,
Andrew.

[erick (Eric)]

You may be interested to know that, as my permission from the Vic Chief Commissioner was coming towards the end of its term, I wrote and enquired about renewal. I eventually got a letter saying they were reviewing the licencing system and they would let me know. That was a few years ago now - nothing heard........?

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by alocky

Well, to be honest the weather here is pretty Melbournian at the moment.
Funny you should mention the WA Police. They've just approached the Perth Observatory regarding the sale of green laser pointers to the volunteers. Get ready for a change in policy.
You'll also be pleased to know the civilian currently managing the firearms branch thinks there are too many guns in WA. Make sure your safe complies to the letter of the law as it currently stands- not when you may have last been inspected.
Cheers,
Andrew.

I cannot understand why you say that we are having Melbournian weather Andrew, it is winter after all. Tonight we have gloriously clear skies. I think we have much better "astro" weather than the east has had, despite it being winter.

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by alocky

Well, to be honest the weather here is pretty Melbournian at the moment.
Funny you should mention the WA Police. They've just approached the Perth Observatory regarding the sale of green laser pointers to the volunteers. Get ready for a change in policy.
You'll also be pleased to know the civilian currently managing the firearms branch thinks there are too many guns in WA. Make sure your safe complies to the letter of the law as it currently stands- not when you may have last been inspected.
Cheers,
Andrew.

The issue Perth Observatory had was related to importation permits and was resolved with the correct paperwork; and they were restricted to 5mW lasers, so this may have been were the confusion has arisen. I am following this up with an MP, however, there does not appear to be any immanent changes to policy, although there are never any guarantees.

[alocky (Andrew lockwood)]

Hope you're right - but why the police felt they needed the names of everybody who'd purchased one through the obs doesn't gel with that story. Also, those pointers were imported a few years back, which is long even by WA standards.
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Raining again - want to revisit your comment about Melbourne weather?
Only difference is a higher base frequency...
cheers,
Andrew

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

The issue Perth Observatory had was related to importation permits and was resolved with the correct paperwork; and they were restricted to 5mW lasers, so this may have been were the confusion has arisen. I am following this up with an MP, however, there does not appear to be any immanent changes to policy, although there are never any guarantees.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by alocky

Hope you're right - but why the police felt they needed the names of everybody who'd purchased one through the obs doesn't gel with that story. Also, those pointers were imported a few years back, which is long even by WA standards.
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Raining again - want to revisit your comment about Melbourne weather?
Only difference is a higher base frequency...
cheers,
Andrew

Andrew, I spoke to Ralph and from that conversation I gathered that the real issue was with the number of lasers imported (on that particular import license) and who was going to use them, so I am not surprised that the Police needed to know who has them, so that they can verify the user has a legitimate right to be in possession of it, if he or she has is ever found to be in his possession of such, as it is definitely still listed as a controlled weapon.

This is the same reason that I have a letter from the Minister of Police verifying that I have a legitimate reason to be in possession of the GLL, in the event that I am found to be in possession of such, if searched.

Confusion still reigns on this issue, which is why I have a letter from the Minister of Police. Copies of the letter and the import licences reside in my telescope cases........to cover my butt It will save a lot of grief from some police officer if he doesn't fully understand the laws.

I have written to my local MP, to verify the status of the laws.

Yep, rain, again. Have seen the state of the dams recently and we sure need it.

Cheers Peter

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Hmmm
Another "Catch 22"
I can't apply for the CCP Permit until I have a Victorian Drivers Licence..
The exchange of the UK licence should be automatic, but there's a delay of 12 days getting an appointment with Vic Roads AND I need proof that we are living in Vic ie rates notice etc.
We are just finalising the purchase of a house and getting the "appropriate" paperwork is a job in itself. (BTW we couldn't even buy a new car...or an eTag!!)
Welcome home!
Onwards and Upwards

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

The story continues.....
After all the paperwork etc etc etc, I've finally received a CCP Approval - to "Carry, Possess, and use" laser pointers >30mW.
The next step is to use this approval to convince the Customs to release my laser pointers.....

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

The final chapter......
I visited Customs at Tullamarine yesterday, presented my CCP Approval permit and collected my laser pointers. Job done.
The guy there said they confiscate "many" laser pointers from returning tourists. I asked how many came back with the necessary permits to have them released....he thought mine was the first they had seen!
I've asked the Astronomical Society of Victoria to consider applying for a "group" exemption for hand lasers. This would allow all ASV members to legally hold laser pointers "for scientific and astronomical purposes"
Onwards and Upwards.

[Logieberra (Logan)]

Merlin, there was a very informative article on this subject published in the Canberra Astronomical Society journal, sometime in 2011. From memory, it was a comparative analysis of the rules and regs across the jurisdictions - and was drafted by a lawyer. Contact CAS to obtain a copy. Might be of interest...

[Ric]

Glad to hear it all worked out for you Ken.

It is amazing to read to read about the hurdles and red tape you had to go through.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

To be honest, it would have been 100% easier, if Customs and the Vic Police had said from day one that the CCP Approval was the documentation needed. I could have applied for it back in June rather than going through three months of redtape.