Banks in general suck

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Originally Posted by brian nordstrom

Who cares , it IS NOT there MONEY ! and all the do is speculate with it anyway , to squeeze every last drop of profit out of something that aint there's to begin with in the first place !!!! At our expence now we as a people are at their mercy as Flash said , AA ratings is a smoke screen , like the burble Politicion's speel ( smoke screens, mate).. Some of us have a memory , there, Ceventer.
I work hard for my money and resent greed using it for their own gains and give me some crumbs eg 1.4% ?.. I still remember my last pay packet that held MY MONEY!!! before we were forced to have it direct deposited , that was not my call ,it was forced on us by greedy bankers , so bugger them!!.. Down hill since then.
Brian.

Spot on Brian ... It's our money their playing with ... and they charge us fees ... so they can ' PLAY ' with it.

The old mattress in my rumpus room is looking better every-time I see it.

Flash

[cventer]

Same thing happened to me when I left university.
My parents had to Guarantee the loan. Pissed me off big time...

BUT once again 2 sides to this.

Australian Banks are much more risk averse than many other countries. This is actualy a good thing and again one of the reasons we have not had a financial melt down or housing bubble burst.

Think about why you would loan money for a house vs car.
A car depreciates 20% the day you drive it away and continues to depreciate its whole life. It can be stolen or crashed.

A house on the other hand is typicaly a secure loan becuase it attached to a physical property that over time appreciates.

Imagine a situation where our banks loaned money to anyone who could in reality probably not afford to repay it or even if they could could not if even something small in their personal circumstances or external environment changed. Oh wait thats what happened in America where greedy banks AND greedy public loaned money with no security deposits. ie loaned 100% of the value of assets. When customers started to default on loans the whoel house of cards came crumbling down.

Australian Banks legally cannot do this. Our industry is regulated to ensure we have a certain %of real money to cover debts.

At some point people also need to take responsibility for their own situation. If you cant afford something dont buy it! If you take a loan out you cant afford to repay when intersts rates rise by .06 of a percent then you cant affford it. Sure Banks compete and offer all kinds of financial products to people. Its people who choose to buy them though.

Shall we bash all the sponsors on the right of this page for advertising and forcing us poor astronmers to buy telescopes and accessories we cant afford ? And shame on those astro stores who make 20% to 30% margin on the gear they sell you. How dare they make such a large profit. :-)

On a serious note, if your Daughter earns enough to afford the loan then leave her husband off the application and she wont have a problem.

Anyway I will now definately bite by tongue and shut up as I get the strong sense no amount of logic or reason will be welcome in this thread.

Originally Posted by FlashDrive

Just had a phone call from my daughter Rebbecca ... she recently returned from London after teaching in one of the High Schools.

She just scored a permanent job at a ' Private ' High School at the Northern end of the Gold Coast .... now get this :

The banks won't lend her $25K to purchase a new car because her Husband who is also a teacher .. hasn't found himself a job yet.... he's looking for a teaching job also.

Rebbecca is on a pretty good 'wicket' pay wise ( private school ) ... yet they would gladly give her a loan of $400K to purchase a house.... but not the car....????????????????.

How ' bent ' is that .... let's nail this young lady down with a debt she does not even want ... !!!

The Banks are so out of touch today.

BTW .... she walked away shaking her head .. ( her words )

Flash

[Jeffkop (Jeff)]

Originally Posted by cventer

I am going to bite my toungue and try stay out of any detail in here for 2 reasons.

1. Based on this last post I can foresee a whole bunch of ignorant and uninformed posts following

2. I work for one of these demon banks who will enslave you for life

Leave you with one thought. If our banks were making the sort of profits our european counterparts are making where would our country be right now ?

Our strong financial institutions are a big reason our country avoided the GFC and financial melt downs occurring all over the world.

I dont know how you would imagine that ANYONE is ignorant and uninformed about banks my friend .... WE ARE involved with them HAVE BEEN involved with them for the whole of our adult lives !!!! ... Thats got to be one of the most incorrect statements Ive seen ... and explains why bankers have a great view of large intestines.

Our strong financial institutions are a big reason our country avoided the GFC and financial melt downs occurring all over the world.

Sorry mate .. Im with the rest of the uninformed mob who:

1. Queue up for our OWN money.
2. Pay a FEE to access our OWN money.
3. Are still yet to discover what banks do FOR US !!!

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Jeffkop

1. Queue up for our OWN money.
2. Pay a FEE to access our OWN money.
3. Are still yet to discover what banks do FOR US !!!

4. Money deposit take 2-3 business days to clear but no problem with money withdrawal showing up straight away in the balance though.

Originally Posted by cventer

Sure banks make a lot of money. But not relative to their cost/asset base.

Are you saying that $2.00 or even more per ATM transaction is fair then? Just asking. I don't know the cost invloved in maintaining ATMs. Even internet banking transactions are charged, then there's account fees, even if you don't use it then the huge difference in interest paid on your savings vs. interest charged on debts/credit cards. I know they run a business but at the end of the day should you be charged that much to access you own money? I'm even limited in the total amount of money I can transfer in between accounts. It's like going through an eye dropper sometime.

[Darth Wader (Wade)]

YES we live in a democratic, capitalist, free-market economy, BUT there is a difference between profit and oligopoly:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/westp...216-1ta49.html

The very fact that these banks are colloquially referred to as "the big four" only serves to reinforce this. My opinion is that this will all come crashing down very soon, and it ain't gonna be pretty.

[AndrewJ]

Sure banks make a lot of money. But not relative to their cost/asset base. The total assets base of our big four banks is $1,170 billion.

Fair enough,

Most Banks are only makign around 1-1.5% actual profit. Fact that 1.5% is off a Billion dollar cost base is often ignored.

OK

Banks pay over $5 billion year in Australian company tax - more than any other industry -

But using the earlier logic, thats nothing "relative to the cost base".

Also, if Banks can pay dividends to shareholders of near 7%
and the shareholders "own" the bank, then profit relative to "cost base" would indicate something doesnt line up in the numbers.


Any way you look at it, the banks are currently sitting on easy street
"relative" to anyone else in Oz ( other than Twiggy ). Guaranteed profits.

Andrew

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Re: On a serious note, if your Daughter earns enough to afford the loan then leave her husband off the application and she wont have a problem.

That's why she walked out....the Bank wanted to ' tie ' her Husband up also... ( but he was still looking for a teacher's position ) ... so sorry lady .. no loan

Another experience my Wife and I had ... about 11 months ago....we both went into one of the Banks we use and asked for a personal loan for 5k to put up a ' Titan ' Garage.

We have roughly $300k equity in our house .... and a small mortgage still owing. ( just under $100k )

This was their reply ..... turn your mortgage over to us .. then we will approve your application for the P/L

What a 'rort' that is ... that would have incurred release fees from the other bank and more set up fees for the new house loan... ALL AT OUR COST ...!!!

I'll say it again .... They are out to ' bleed ' you as much as they can.

Anyway ... we said ' so sorry ' .... you obviously don't want our business with a response like that.

Once upon a time .... being a Bank Manager was a ' well respected ' position ( I'm talking about when I was growing up as a kid in the 60's ) ..... today ....well I read a 'poll ' not so long ago regarding the worst occupations people despised .... among the worst 5 were Used Car Salesman and you guessed it Bank Managers.

Go for a walk down the street today ... start asking people ...How do you feel about the Banks today .... I'll bet their response wouldn't be nice.... their language would be quiet' colourful ' .

Flash .

[casstony]

Originally Posted by cventer

And now the armchair economists all come out of hiding.

Given that most professional economists are clinging to failed theory that has brought the world financial system to it's knees, perhaps us armchair guys could do a better job

I'll swap you a 1000 ning nong economists for one Steve Keene

[cventer]

Originally Posted by multiweb

4. Money deposit take 2-3 business days to clear but no problem with money withdrawal showing up straight away in the balance though.



Are you saying that $2.00 or even more per ATM transaction is fair then? Just asking. I don't know the cost invloved in maintaining ATMs. Even internet banking transactions are charged, then there's account fees, even if you don't use it then the huge difference in interest paid on your savings vs. interest charged on debts/credit cards. I know they run a business but at the end of the day should you be charged that much to access you own money? I'm even limited in the total amount of money I can transfer in between accounts. It's like going through an eye dropper sometime.

Mark , this is one area where I think public have a legitamte gripe. Maintaining a fleet of 1000's of ATM's is certainy not cheap. Any time you touch them not only are you paying for the technicians time but also hiring a security firm to acompany them. The devices themsleves have a lot of complex electronics and moving parts that wear out and need constant maintenance over time. Its not an area i am an expert in, but the magnitiude of ATM fees do seem hard to justify.

As far as the delays of deposits goes and limit amounts on transfers. This is all there to protect the customers and is in fact regulated. You dont want to allow limits of > 10,000 on internet transfers as this would make it very easy for cyber criminals to clean out peopls accounts and would provide even more incentive for them to target the average customer. Not only that amounts > 10,000 are subject to Anti Money Laundering regulation so Banks are by law required to verify that your transfer is not related to illegal actvitiy or money laundering. Again governement regulated ultimately to protect the general public.

This is what my uninformed comment in earlier post was related to. Most people just dont know this kind of factual information so invent stories about how the evil banks are forcing this on the publc for their own gain.

Deposits usauly take 24 hours to clear depending on when you do it. Billions of dollars exchange between banks electronical every night flawlessly. These exchanges happen through clearing houses where the banks essentally swap big files with eachother telling eachother what money went out and what came in. The overnight process ensures the money from the sender was actualy in their account. This is the reason withdrawals come out stright away so that you make more payment than you have funds in your account. If you sell a piece of gear on IIS do you send it to the seller before you confirm reciept of payment ? No. of course not. Yet the money came straight out your account. No different for Banks. They want to see the money in their account before reflecting it on your balance.

Im not defending the banks for being saints. They are a business who are out to make a profit like any other business. What I am saying though is that having AA rated profitable banks is not a bad thing for our country and weather you ike it or not is a contirbuting factor to why our country remains largely shielded from the GFC. There are a few here who like to think the AA rating means nothing but I guarantee you you would be paying a lot more interest on your home loan right now if we did not have it.

Also while its true there may not be enough real competition in Banking in Australia you do have choices. If your bank gives you bad service or cant meet your financial needs. Vote with your feet.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't know enough about the inner working of the banks and their running costs but as an end user trying to access and move my money around I can see there are some sneaky practices at times. Like limiting the withdrawal on a CC to $300.00 max per transation on Xmas period and charging an efty $4.50 transation fee for each withdrawal with an ATM run by the same bank the card was issued by (Westfield Liverpool - Westpac). That really frustrated the hell out of me when I tried to withdraw some money from my account for my Dad visiting from overseas.

I now understand the ATM maintenance and security costs but one ATM does the job of many branch cashiers so they save money on handling and wages. That sure would offset some of the costs if not break even. Finally one bank, Adelaide Bank, now Bendigo still allows me to transfer any amount overnight out to any other account. So why not the other institutions? I hear you about cybercrime but that's nothing new. Limiting the amount of cash in and out won't solve anything. On the other hand some places don't even require a signature anymore for any amount under $100.00 paid with a CC (Officeworks - Hoxton Park). That's not very secure now is it? All this doesn't make much sense to me as an end user and it frustrates me more than anything. I think most people get annoyed by all the little technicalities. It's our money and it has to be easily accessible, movable from A to B and fast without the fuss or being creamed in the process.

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Did anybody know this ... read the first line.

Between them, the big four - ANZ, Commonwealth, NAB and Westpac - are pocketing $44,000 a minute in profit, but their silence of almost 48 hours left Queensland families sweating over whether they would get a Christmas reprieve.


ANZ chief Philip Chronican said the bank would make rates decisions on the second Friday of each month to "provide predictability" for consumers and more "flexibility".
Consumer group Choice warned the ANZ rate cut might be a "shiny wrapping around a bitter pill".


The country's central bank boss has attacked the major banks for the widening gap between their home loan rates and official rates.
Reserve Bank of Australia governor Glenn Stevens said there was a growing disparity between home loan rates and the RBA's cash rate, this week cut by 0.25 per cent to 4.25 per cent - the lowest levels since April 2010.


He said the central bank had to lower the cash rate by further than it otherwise wanted to as a way to offset the banks' resistance.

"All four major banks took two full days to respond to the official cut but after days of wrath from the public and Treasurer Wayne Swan passed on the reduction in full to their variable home loan customers."


"I've said this countless times, and it's usually ignored, but, yes, the spread between the cash rate and major home loan rates has risen by something like 100 basis points since about 2007," Mr Stevens said at a university talk in Sydney last night.


"For that reason, the cash rate is roughly lower than it would have been otherwise, to offset that. We have broadly offset that change in the margin by setting our instrument appropriately.''


The cuts come amid fears the big banks will try to set their own regime for rate reviews and thumb their noses at the RBA.


And this was posted also ... credit to the original poster.


Nationalise Already, Privatization experiment has failed how many more generations need to be subjected to the legalised theft by the Banks. You work, you get paid, yet the banks can charge you for accessing your money? The Whole system is a rort, the Gov't is supposed to be providing a system of Currency yet it seems to me if you use Eftpos then it is all the bank. The gov't claiming it is only responsible for paper currency is Crap it Does NOT say that in the constitution and in this day and age controlling a currency mean Controlling the ELECTRONIC currency not archaic bits of paper.

Source of information : just scroll down.

http://www.news.com.au/money/interes...-1226217741671

Flash... !!

[TrevorW]

By the way banks don't own ATM's they lease them and the owners get a take from every transaction we make

ATM's are cheaper to run than bank tellers, ATM's work 24hrs a day don't get sick or have holidays and if one breaks down there are 100 more to fill the gap all doing the same thing

At one stage being a bank teller was a great job to have, now forget it most are part timers and some banks have their teller staff cleaning ATM's

Why do you think banks can keep putting off staff, they want all transactions etc to be done electronically as it doesn't cost them (a lot)

Although some are still behind the times I had to fax my recent transaction documents instead of scanning and emailing them in.

[casstony]

Swan's berrating of the banks is just for public consumtion; I bet Swan and the bank CEO's are chummy behind closed doors. He knows full well that banks are under pressure due to cost of overseas funds.

Current interest rates would not be an issue for most borrowers if they hadn't been tricked into buying houses at inflated prices. Consumers are not familiar with business and assett price cycles, but the banks know exactly what they're doing and were assisted in the theft of our money through first home buyers grants which helped to inflate house prices, not to mention wasting tax revenue.

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Originally Posted by casstony

Swan's berrating of the banks is just for public consumtion;

I agree .... just plain old lip service .. trying to make out he's ' angry ' with the Banks ... nice show Swan'y ( another vote catching antic ) ... you don't fool me mate.

Flash

[mithrandir (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

By the way banks don't own ATM's they lease them and the owners get a take from every transaction we make...

Yes and no. ATMs in bank branches usually belong to the bank.

ATMs in other places like the standalone ones in shopping centres, pubs and clubs are usually leased and the owner takes a cut from the transaction fee.

Almost every service or maintenance function on an ATM, including refilling the cash drawers, requires a security guard. The guard companies have minimum call-out times so the ATM owner can be looking at well over $100 per call-out even if it only takes a couple of minutes work.

Sure in the city if one ATM is down there will be another one around the corner. That's not true elsewhere, and it can take more than a day to get a service team and guard out to one.

Use you own bank's ATMs whenever possible to minimize any charges.

OK, so no-one is happy paying for a service they think they don't want.

Going back to cash pay packets is not going to happen. It is too expensive in terms of guards, insurance and handling.

You aren't going to give up on your credit/debit cards. They are too convenient.

BPay and PayAnyone mean I haven't written a cheque in ages.

These services from the bank all cost me, but I'm prepared to trade that off for the convenience.

Switch over to a credit union and be one of the owners. My CU has just become a bank so I'll have to see how that pans out.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Interesting thread! Don't you just love "bank bashing". I could make some comments here, in support of banks, but couldn't stand the howls of derision.

But, I will say this. Banks are a business and the general rule of business is to make a profit. Don't make a profit...you don't have a business, at least, for long. This happens all too frequently.

As for the profits of banks, they don't belong to the bank, as such, but to the shareholders, of which, each and every one wants a return on their investment. Not all shareholders in bank stock are institutional investors, as there are a lot of mum and dad investors too. So, if you think their profits are obscene, then buy shares in the bank and see if you still feel the same. The returns are not as high as they appear by the time they are divided, at this level. Also, banks have to pay a return to those that have deposits, for without these deposits, the bank wouldn't have any money to lend in the first place, which is why the Government guarantees these deposits. It all started a couple hundred years ago!

I am one of these depositors who wants a reasonable return; and I look around for the best return I can get. So, am I to blame for the increase in funding costs? You bet! Like the rest of us, I want to make money. It's the capitalist way, after all!

Furthermore, a lot of emphasis is put on interest rates in regard to mortgage holders. Interestingly, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, there are only about 2,225,000 mortgage holders in Australia. So, what about the rest?

On the other hand, Australia's credit card debt is around $48.6 Billion, as of Nov. last year. This is where the banks are making a lot of their profits. Whose faults that? Is it the banks? I don't think so.

If it wasn't for all the people borrowing money through mortgages, credit cards and other loans, then maybe the banks wouldn't be so well off; and neither would we. I bet your standard of living would be much lower, if you couldn't borrow for the things you want. I think this is the essential problem, we want it all......and we want it now! Furthermore, the company that pays your wages / salary probably has to borrow the money to stay in business in any case.

I have to agree with Colin's (Flash Drives) earlier comments that we should live within our means, but a lot of people just don't. I have a credit card, but it mostly has a zero balance. If I cannot afford to pay it off completely at the end of each month, then I don't use it, particular for discretionary spending.

Although I have been lucky, in some respects, it is also through good management, and living within my means, that I have no mortgage or debt. I have some small savings and I, for one, do not like interest rate reductions (apologies to all the mortgage holders). When I was paying a mortgage, my interest rate was 17%, so sorry if I don't sympathise too well on this issue. Likewise, there are many self funded retirees (I am not one of them) who suffer a great deal from interest rate reductions. Not everyone has a mortgage, so why is there such emphasis on mortgage rates. We don't hear a hue and cry about credit card rates, for which far too many Australians owe such vast sums.

As for Mr Swan, I wonder if he has any money invested and, if so, again, I agree with Flash, that he is giving mere lip service. I am sure if he has investments, nothing will get done.

The only other thing that I will add, is that the situation with banks is far from cut and dried. I am sure the issues are far more complex than they appear to the general public.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by casstony

Swan's berrating of the banks is just for public consumtion; I bet Swan and the bank CEO's are chummy behind closed doors. He knows full well that banks are under pressure due to cost of overseas funds.

Current interest rates would not be an issue for most borrowers if they hadn't been tricked into buying houses at inflated prices. Consumers are not familiar with business and assett price cycles, but the banks know exactly what they're doing and were assisted in the theft of our money through first home buyers grants which helped to inflate house prices, not to mention wasting tax revenue.

Inflated prices are due to supply and demand, nothing more. It is the same in most industries. As for wasted taxes, they're not really wasted anyway. Whilst Governments keep spending, the money circulates. Just think back to times when Governments introduced austerity measures (like during WWII).

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Stardrifter_WA

Inflated prices are due to supply and demand, nothing more. (i.e WWII).

Assett and market bubbles are much more complex than this statement suggests. Peoples idea of what something is worth (which determines what they will pay) is mostly dependent on what they think others will pay, rather than the item being valued on fundamentals; this leads to large fluctuations in prices with changes in sentiment.

To illustrate my point take a look at the last few decades of house prices in Japan, USA and Australia; what does this suggest is ahead for us? Or consider stockmarket crashes - why does the value change dramatically in short time periods? The answer in found in sentiment/psychology, and the bankers in their ivory towers have a good old time manipulating sentiment of the pond life to their own ends.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Originally Posted by casstony

Assett and market bubbles are much more complex than this statement suggests. Peoples idea of what something is worth (which determines what they will pay) is mostly dependent on what they think others will pay, rather than the item being valued on fundamentals; this leads to large fluctuations in prices with changes in sentiment.

To illustrate my point take a look at the last few decades of house prices in Japan, USA and Australia; what does this suggest is ahead for us? Or consider stockmarket crashes - why does the value change dramatically in short time periods? The answer in found in sentiment/psychology, and the bankers in their ivory towers have a good old time manipulating sentiment of the pond life to their own ends.

That is a fair enough statement, it is all in the psychology, as you suggest. It is more complex than my earlier thoughts suggested. That can be the source of the problem. I saw this in the boom of the 80's where I had agents literally knocking on my door offering me $20,000 more than the house was worth, all because they "created" the idea of shortages in supply, making the buyers think that they must snap up these houses now or miss out. But, it still comes down to demand, to a degree. Without the demand, they wouldn't have been able to get away with such practices. Caveat Emptor

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

That reminds me why I am like I am with banks ,Flash . .
Many years ago as a struggling aprentice Boilermaker , rebuilding an E37 R/T charger , and after 5 years or struggle , save and 1000's of late nights , my baby was nearly finished , I did every thing my self as I was a poor boy back then , . anyway a friend offered me a set of triple 45mm webbers and manifolds , linkeges, the works for a kings ransom of $1200 , OH YEA!!. I had about $110 to my name so went to the buan for a loan of the $1200 ,, filled forms and waited a week .
On a phone call from them I went to pick up my $1200 ,,, , but no loan for this poor boy at 12% interest , NO A VISA !!! card with a $5000 limit at 20% interest WHAT!!!!,, I snapped it in 1/2 and walked out.
I missed those carbs , and built a 4 barrel manifold my self and fitted an old 465 Holley 4bbl I rebuilt myself.

I learned way back then Flash what they done to your Rebbecca now , ,, DOGS!!! the lot of them.
Bugger them.
Brian.

Originally Posted by FlashDrive

Just had a phone call from my daughter Rebbecca ... she recently returned from London after teaching in one of the High Schools.

She just scored a permanent job at a ' Private ' High School at the Northern end of the Gold Coast .... now get this :

The banks won't lend her $25K to purchase a new car because her Husband who is also a teacher .. hasn't found himself a job yet.... he's looking for a teaching job also.

Rebbecca is on a pretty good 'wicket' pay wise ( private school ) ... yet they would gladly give her a loan of $400K to purchase a house.... but not the car....????????????????.

How ' bent ' is that .... let's nail this young lady down with a debt she does not even want ... !!!

The Banks are so out of touch today.

BTW .... she walked away shaking her head .. ( her words )

Flash