New test for faster than light neutrino experiment

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Thanks for the clarifications there Steven .. it seems that using the Standard Model is almost inappropriate for just about anything to do with neutrinos … (eg: even explaining their mass !)

Cheers

Neutrinos are a nightmare to the Standard model.

They participate in reactions that violate P-symmetry.
Neutrino oscillation violates CP-symmetry.

In our Universe only left handed neutrinos exist.

Regards

Steven

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by avandonk

The people I really hate are the lucid and rational. So I look carefully at their posts and if I find the slightest aberration I will castigate them for it so negating their lucidity and reason! Simple really. Wanna see some stolen emails?

Bert

I recall a maths tutor at Uni who had a psycho-pathological dislike of one of the undergrads. An assignment required a mathematical proof which was correctly handled by the student.

The tutor being unable to find any flaws in the proof marked down the student for using a biro that produced excessively thick lines.

Same principles apply.

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

I recall a maths tutor at Uni who had a psycho-pathological dislike of one of the undergrads. An assignment required a mathematical proof which was correctly handled by the student.

The tutor being unable to find any flaws in the proof marked down the student for using a biro that produced excessively thick lines.

Same principles apply.

Regards

Steven

Sounds like my loony physics lab tutors …
One of them got violent whenever someone made a mistake. He was seemingly in practice for the Olympic 'Discus' throw and he exercised his right arm frequently on undergraduate exercise/lab experiment books.

Cheers

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Neutrinos are a nightmare to the Standard model.

They participate in reactions that violate P-symmetry.
Neutrino oscillation violates CP-symmetry.

In our Universe only left handed neutrinos exist.

Regards

Steven

I didn't have time to go into more details this morning but it also seemed to me that the Cohen-Glashow concept relies on a theoretical Standard Model view of neutrino behaviours (which are hopelessly 'kludged' in the Standard Model).

The MSW effect looks interesting and relevant, as the propagation speed of neutrino through solid rock vs free space is different and leads to the conclusion of a variable effective neutrino mass (??)

The interpretation of this whole thing looks very complicated the more one goes into the history of neutrinos - ie: how the Standard Model has been adapted to explain them … and 'other' explanations conjured up to describe their behaviours every time a new behaviour is observed !

Tricky stuff ! .. And all with a mass of less than a couple of eV !

I reckon they'll be working on the answers to this one for years !
I wouldn't be holding my breath for an outcome soon !

Cheers

[avandonk]

I gave a talk for thirty minutes on signal to noise in xray data collection and the relevant optics that improved the signal to noise at CSIRO. I thought I had dumbed it down enough. When I finished the sea of about one hundred people's faces were looking like stunned mulletts.

The only person who asked the first question was my supervisor. He looked as lost as the rest. It was then I realised that what I was doing was beyond their comprehension. I mumbled something about everything I have done is self evident.

From then on I was tagged with this epithet. Everything is self evident to Bert and yet we do not understand.

In labs far and wide when they had a major problem they would joke that the answer was self evident! Just ask Bert!

Bert

[bojan]

Looks like neutrinos are NOT FTL.. after all. And they should clean their optical connectors more often.
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencein...es-faster.html

[Barrykgerdes]

Originally Posted by avandonk

I gave a talk for thirty minutes on signal to noise in xray data collection and the relevant optics that improved the signal to noise at CSIRO. I thought I had dumbed it down enough. When I finished the sea of about one hundred people's faces were looking like stunned mulletts.

The only person who asked the first question was my supervisor. He looked as lost as the rest. It was then I realised that what I was doing was beyond their comprehension. I mumbled something about everything I have done is self evident.

From then on I was tagged with this epithet. Everything is self evident to Bert and yet we do not understand.

In labs far and wide when they had a major problem they would joke that the answer was self evident! Just ask Bert!

Bert

Typical jibe from the average guy. I ran into similar problems. In the end The bosses said "fix it and then tell us what you did"

The other common instruction to you about the opposition was don't tell them how to do it or they will get your job. I found like you that telling them was the best way to get them completely flamboozled and ensure you were irreplaceable.

Barry

PS back to neutrinos I said that neutrinos would be closest to the speed of light and there must be something wrong with the way they measured light. I still stand by this statement.

[multiweb (Marc)]

That was funny.

OPERA: "Yes, hello? Tech support?"

Tech: "Hello, and welcome to CERN Tech Support. Can I help you?"

OPERA: "Yeah, we are getting anomalous results that, uh, would appear to upend the theory of relativity..."

Tech: "That is a concern. Is your Large Hadron Collider plugged in?"

OPERA: "Yes, but that's not the problem. It's, er, the neutrinos. They're all coming sort of fast."

Tech: "Is your neutrino detector plugged in?"

OPERA: *sigh* "Yes."

Tech: "Have you tested your router/GPS connection recently?"

OPERA: "..."

[rainwatcher (Peter)]

I had searched in vain for something, outside of politics, that would provide a simple illustration of the word Supercilious. I will be forwarding them to this particular forum in future.

[bartman (Bart)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Looks like neutrinos are NOT FTL.. after all. And they should clean their optical connectors more often.
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencein...es-faster.html

Or it could be a nice way of saying...."nothing to see here....please move on..." all the while they have found a way to make a FTL drive.....sorry I've been watching too many re-runs of SGU etc...

Bartman

[Karls48 (Karl)]

Read follow up article. It is possible that bad optical cable connection would underestimate the anomalous speed of neutrinos.
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencein...ne.html?ref=hp

[rainwatcher (Peter)]

A mischievous neutrino named tau,
Noted Opera’s mathematical flaw,
So he led them astray
In a neutrino sort of way
And slipped in by means of the back door.

[Robh (Rob)]

Hi All,

New update on faster-than-light neutrinos.
Looks like they "respect the cosmic speed limit"!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-light-neutrin

Regards, Rob

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by Robh

Hi All,

New update on faster-than-light neutrinos.
Looks like they "respect the cosmic speed limit"!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-light-neutrin

Regards, Rob

Thanks Ron.
Interesting,proves the scientific method works
Cheers

[Barrykgerdes]

Nothing is faster than the phenoma we refer to as the speed light.

A flash of light at a given point in time appears everywhere at the same time. It is our concept of time and space that makes it seem different.

If there is a "thing" called a neutrino it must have mass of some value therefore it can never reach the speed of light. The same goes for the "photon"

I am not a scientist but I know this to be true but I can't explain why.

Barry

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

Nothing is faster than the phenoma we refer to as the speed light.

A flash of light at a given point in time appears everywhere at the same time. It is our concept of time and space that makes it seem different.

If there is a "thing" called a neutrino it must have mass of some value therefore it can never reach the speed of light. The same goes for the "photon"

I am not a scientist but I know this to be true but I can't explain why.

Barry

Here is the explanation.

Suppose the neutrino mass is extremely small say 1 eV.
When the neutrinos reached the detector they had an energy of around 1 GeV according to the OPERA experiment.

Now 1 GeV/1eV = 10^9.

We can use this factor to calculate the theoretical speed of the neutrino by using the Lorentz factor in SR. The factor represents the increase in mass as the neutrino is accelerated towards the speed of light c.

1/(1-(v^2/c^2))^0.5 = 10^9

Solving for v gives v= 0.9999999999999999995c

The neutrinos travelled a distance of 732 km in the ICARUS experiment. The time difference between a neutrino travelling at 0.9999999999999999995c and c at this distance is 10^-12 nanoseconds.
This is way beyond the detection capability.

Rounding off errors results in neutrinos "travelling" at speed c.

Regards

Steven