NBN Myths Busted

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by avandonk

That is fine with me omaroo We could also consider the four billion spent on private health insurance by taxpayer subsidy every year and growing......
Bert

Going through the propaganda on NBN's website I spotted this gem.. the NBN will help deliver health services...including...wait for it... "E-triage!"

Are these clowns for real? I can see it now: "Forget the Flying Doc Blue! Get the i-pad !! "

One would think more front line health professionals actually at the scene might be a little more useful for trauma medicine
than an optical fibre...

Reminds me of the old Peter Sellers song.. "Doctor I'm in touble"
"Well goodness gracious me" (with Indian accent)

[CraigS]

That the technology planning presentation was devoid of business case parameters is of great significance, also.

I think this speaks volumes about the depth of awareness about the primary concerns of the audience (be they tecchies ... or not).

What real myths were actually busted ?

Cheers

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

The technicalities for the NBN are definately there, it can deliver what it is said to.

That being said, inside 5 years, only 20% of the devices accessing the Internet will be a PC. So all that extra ummph that the NBN will deliver, will be for the joyous benefit of the few who live in the past. Mobile devices will be the consumers of Internet services in the future.

All that extra bandwidth, I know Foxtel would love to have it. Great way for Mr Murdoch to get into your home without him having to fund it. But I am being cynical.

[renormalised (Carl)]

This NBN is a prime example of the failings of our present system of doing things. Look at how much this is being slated to cost. Then watch how much it will actually cost to implement, if and when they get the ball rolling. If they ever get a coherent system up and running...this will not be without the inevitable delays and squabbles over who's getting what and how to implement the system (as technology changes). Instead of trying to build these sort of projects in a monetary based economic system and finding out you can't do them properly, if at all, the best system under which to implement these sort of projects is a resource based economic system. Knowing what resources you have, you then decide whether it's feasible or not to go ahead with a particular project. Something like the NBN should be rolled out as a matter of consequence for the benefit of all....not to the benefit of whoever pays for it and runs it (under the present system). It should also be rolled out and managed by those people who actually know what they're doing and talking about, not by some idiot who has a political science/economics/law/commerce/business/accounting degree who thinks that just because a few thousand people voted for him/her that they're somehow expert on anything they happen to be given to run. It's like giving Attila the Hun the launch codes for every nuke in the US arsenal and expecting him to be mature enough not to use them. Bad enough they're in the hands they're in. Leaving the implementation of the NBN up to politicians is a guarantee of seeing it either fail completely or watching some hodge podge system come into service that won't work properly to begin with. If it does, it'll be a miracle.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

The technicalities for the NBN are definately there, it can deliver what it is said to.

That being said, inside 5 years, only 20% of the devices accessing the Internet will be a PC. So all that extra ummph that the NBN will deliver, will be for the joyous benefit of the few who live in the past. Mobile devices will be the consumers of Internet services in the future.

All that extra bandwidth, I know Foxtel would love to have it. Great way for Mr Murdoch to get into your home without him having to fund it. But I am being cynical.

You have to be aware that "mobile" is not really mobile.
It relies on a number of wireless cells, that need to be connected with high-speed links with hubs and servers... Because the transmitters on your mobile devices can't have higher-than-something power output. So fibre infrastructure is essential for those services, and it will be used by those who live in the future as well.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

The technicalities for the NBN are definately there, it can deliver what it is said to.

That being said, inside 5 years, only 20% of the devices accessing the Internet will be a PC. So all that extra ummph that the NBN will deliver, will be for the joyous benefit of the few who live in the past. Mobile devices will be the consumers of Internet services in the future.

All that extra bandwidth, I know Foxtel would love to have it. Great way for Mr Murdoch to get into your home without him having to fund it. But I am being cynical.

Most of those mobile devices can connect to hotspots throughout cities at places like McDonalds for one example and they will be connected to the Fibre Optic network the stories going around about new wireless tech being the big new thing it can't come close to what fibre can deliver
and they all join up to the fibre at some point anyway.

And satelite and mobile service is dependant on the weather being good ie no cloud with satelite and line of sight for mobile tech.

[mishku]

Hi Peter, in my professional life, I work in the community health field. With the advent of digitised medical records (and honestly, with the complexity of our health care system), so much more of our work is done electronically, in the acute, subacute, community and allied health areas. On any given day, I make countless referrals to other specialist services, and without a bit of high-tech assistance, the process would be much longer. Indeed, the way we decide who can access our service is from a centralised waitlist, and you guessed it... we triage our referrals electronically.

Given the ratio of service availability to service requirements, for many areas, triage for services is a reality. I would hazard a guess that in order to access most aged care, community care services, disability or mental health services, you (whether you realise it or not) are sent through a triage or priority of access process. You're most certainly guaranteed to go through triage in order to access public acute or outpatient services. Let's face it, the old adage of an ounce of prevention and a pound of cure rings true, especially in the world of health - and that means accessing preventative health care through services that are part of the wider community and not just based in the hospital. Given population growth and rationalisation of service delivery, it's unlikely that the need for triage will be any less, and so improving process efficiency is pretty important. If the NBN provides any advantage in the speed with which we can share critical patient information with medical or support staff, I'm all for it.

M

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Going through the propaganda on NBN's website I spotted this gem.. the NBN will help deliver health services...including...wait for it... "E-triage!"

Are these clowns for real? I can see it now: "Forget the Flying Doc Blue! Get the i-pad !! "

One would think more front line health professionals actually at the scene might be a little more useful for trauma medicine
than an optical fibre...

Reminds me of the old Peter Sellers song.. "Doctor I'm in touble"
"Well goodness gracious me" (with Indian accent)

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by bojan

You have to be aware that "mobile" is not really mobile.
It relies on a number of wireless cells, that need to be connected with high-speed links with hubs and servers... Because the transmitters on your mobile devices can't have higher-than-something power output. So fibre infrastructure is essential for those services, and it will be used by those who live in the future as well.

Originally Posted by supernova1965

Most of those mobile devices can connect to hotspots throughout cities at places like McDonalds for one example and they will be connected to the Fibre Optic network the stories going around about new wireless tech being the big new thing it can't come close to what fibre can deliver
and they all join up to the fibre at some point anyway.

And satelite and mobile service is dependant on the weather being good ie no cloud with satelite and line of sight for mobile tech.

Sorry guys, I am fully aware of the technicalities of what you are saying. What you are missing, is that what people want is not being listened to, and you are getting what you have been told you can have.

Simple question, my 10yr old son jumps into the car with his laptop, and asks why cant it connect to the Internet? We were discussing this over dinner with the CTO of HP Enterprises Services on Tuesday evening. It is not a techincal question but more philisophical question, about what the next generation of users are going to expect.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by mishku

Hi Peter, in my professional life... we triage our referrals electronically. .....

M

Are you saying you'd email someone because a patient:

is likely to live, regardless of what care they receive
likely to die, regardless of what care they receive
or immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome ???

I suspect we are not talking about the same class of triage...

[mishku]

Nah, Peter, as I said, I work in community health... which is no less a critical health service, I'd argue! We are talking about different sorts of triage, I think you're thinking of acute. What I'm trying to say (and what the NBN page doesn't seem to get into) is that for many (most?) health services that arent based in an acute health service (ie, a hospital), triage is a reality. That's millions of Aussies every year, and millions and millions of health care records floating around. The IT infrastructure underpinning healthcare is actually pretty incredible. Now if I break a leg and my ambo cracks out an ipad to email the hospital, there'll be a woooorld of trouble

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Are you saying you'd email someone because a patient:

is likely to live, regardless of what care they receive
likely to die, regardless of what care they receive
or immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome ???

I suspect we are not talking about the same class of triage...

[bojan]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

Sorry guys, I am fully aware of the technicalities of what you are saying. What you are missing, is that what people want is not being listened to, and you are getting what you have been told you can have.

Simple question, my 10yr old son jumps into the car with his laptop, and asks why cant it connect to the Internet? We were discussing this over dinner with the CTO of HP Enterprises Services on Tuesday evening. It is not a techincal question but more philisophical question, about what the next generation of users are going to expect.

Well... we are living in market economy, so what else do you expect from your kids? They are just product of the consumer society and it's forces.
Demand and supply (or vice versa).

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Clearly all, systems in a modern society have pressures on them to be upgraded, but I doubt you need optical fibre to run a train.

Agreed, this is not the thread to soapbox on other priorities. My concern is simply that having a compulsory high speed data link to my home doesn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy when I'm sitting in grid-lock or being slugged with onerous utility bills.

Out on a job an couldn't respond.

Peter I believe you suffer the same symptoms that I occasionally do that is respond without reading. Train are run by drivers, signalling is other features usually on the track. When I left the railway they were implementing fibre anyway, the link not only provide fast data they also provide consistent data communications.
The links we established not only supplied the train traffic lights but also other things including telephone systems, telemetry system to locate faults and send back specific details of the faults etc, because the copper network was failing even at that time.

Utilities are state government and if you live in the east then it is also private.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Well... we are living in market economy, so what else do you expect from your kids? They are just product of the consumer society and it's forces.
Demand and supply (or vice versa).

And that is my philisophical problem with the NBN, we are moving from a market economy where companies are trying to provide a competitive edge and move where the demand is, to McDonalds where all you get are Big Macs and Fries, one size fits all.

I see them sending $43,000,000,000 on what yesterday needed, not what tomorrow needs.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

And that is my philisophical problem with the NBN, we are moving from a market economy where companies are trying to provide a competitive edge and move where the demand is, to McDonalds where all you get are Big Macs and Fries, one size fits all.

I see them sending $43,000,000,000 on what yesterday needed, not what tomorrow needs.

I think tomorrow will need even more than that.. the growth in comms is more than exponential.
20 years ago everybody thought telephone will be quite enough for all times to come.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

..... When I left the railway they were implementing fibre anyway, the link not only provide fast data they also provide consistent data communications......

I could see many ways to skin this cat, but, sorry, a public optical fibre network wasn't one of them.

Are you serious? Any concerns about: security, integrity of service, proprietary hardware and software all plugged into a public or 3rd party network?

Also made me wonder how steam trains ever got around

ATC did something similar years ago. As an end user of their (centralised) system I have to say I find their level of service as wanting.

Outside controlled airspace I much prefered the "quaint" Radio (and copper ) Flight Service units...with human operators... that often gave invaluable briefings of local traffic + weather information that the automatic/remote system are now oblivious to.

[PeterM]

To be able to download porn quicker, play games much faster, gamble on call and use facebook quicker I reckon $34 billion will be seen as a great investment by the majority, being able to use it for other productivity, well I guess that will catch on........
PeterM

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

Speaking like a typical City people, tune the radio to Alan Jones and who cares about the rest of the country.

Peter for many us country people who are often 2 or 3 hours away from a doctor the NBN will help. If you have ever had to get first aid advice over the radio or phone, being able to show whats going on is great.

If you've ever traveled 4 or 5 hours to see a doctor for 5 mintues, a webcam visit would be great.

Just about ever Lib and Nats polly that knows how to log onto a computer thinks it's a great idea. It's only their governement at all cost stance that stops them saying it.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by KenGee

....
If you've ever traveled 4 or 5 hours to see a doctor for 5 mintues, a webcam visit would be great.....

My local Doc is flat out seeing patients as it is & have a sneaking suspicion putting a webcam in his office would not allow him to make more hours in the day to see even more patients.... more front-line medico's I suggest is what is really needed.

I'd also be interested in hearing from any GP's on how clinical presentation of a patient, who is not in the clinic could actually work. eg: poke youself here? does it hurt?

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

I'd also be interested in hearing from any GP's on how clinical presentation of a patient, who is not in the clinic could actually work. eg: poke youself here? does it hurt?

While not being a GP I have been told that the GP makes a Video appointment with a specialist and the specialist talks the GP through the diagnostic steps.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

While not being a GP I have been told that the GP makes a Video appointment with a specialist and the specialist talks the GP through the diagnostic steps.

With Professional to Professional, wouldn't simply picking up a telephone achieve the same end?

Getting back to the patient...I can see much being missed via a webcam. I am not the only one. The is quite a deal written about this on the web already by medico's themselves.

The gist seems to be it puts extra responsibility on the doctor and there is a risk of errors of misdiagnosis (I can see the lawyers having a field-day with this), extensive examinations are not possible.....

Sure high speed data transmission can help with back office functions, but
the rest looks like spin to me.