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  #21  
Old 05-07-2011, 10:15 PM
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renormalised (Carl)
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Originally Posted by ArcaneMagik View Post
Wien's Law says better wear your sunscreen on that planet.
Sunscreen doesn't quite cut it
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2011, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Deuterium to Hydrogen ratio. Depending on the amount of the ratio, the higher the water content of the body. Venus has a ratio of 10000:1. The only way to get a ratio that high is to have a very large content of water. The deuterium is preferentially concentrated in the atmosphere as the hydrogen is carried off after being separated from water molecules via UV radiation.
Done some reading on this aspect since yesterday. Here is a good, snappy paper explaining the theory (for those interested, and for the record).

Below is my interpretation of how this all works:

The above statements are valid if one starts with the key assumption that Venus once had a D/H ratio identical to that of Earth. If this ratio was identical, then it is logical to conclude that Venus may have lost 99.9% of its hydrogen. Since terrestrial planets don't have free hydrogen molecules or atoms in their atmospheres, it is also reasonable to conclude that they probably never did. On Earth, rocks rarely contain hydrogen unless the hydrogen is derived from water. In the atmosphere of Solar System planets so far sampled, hydrogen is contained mostly within methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3) and water (H2O). On Venus, neither CH4 or NH3 are abundant, so it is concluded that water is the likely reservoir for hydrogen. Since water vapour forms only about 0.002% of Venus' atmosphere, it is concluded that most of the hydrogen has escaped due to photodissociation (UV zapping) of water which, it is assumed, contains both deuterium and 'normal' hydrogen water in the same ratio as Earth, Asteroids, Comets and proto-planetary disks.

The deuterium atoms are left behind resulting in the disproportionate ratio, measured by the Venus Pioneer probes dropped into Venus' atmosphere. 'Disproportionate' when compared Earth, Asteroids, Comets and proto-planetary disks, that is.

Seeing as all this depends on the D/H ratio being fixed, how fixed is the ratio throughout the so far explored universe ?

As it turns out, they are finding that the D/H ratio may not be a unique criterion to discriminate between the different origins of water on Earth because new theories are explaining that it is possible for different ratios to have occurred in different temperature regions of proto-planetary disks.
On top of this, the remote measurement of deuterium via spectroscopic measurements is controversial, due to inaccurate assumptions in the models used in its determination.

So, my conclusion is that whilst there is rationale surrounding the theory of 'big water' in the past on Venus, this is all based on the assumption that the ratio of D/H on Venus started out the same as for Earth, which may or may not turn out to be as solid an assumption as first thought.

Cheers
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2011, 01:55 PM
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An assumption it is, but it's the best evidence that we have. There's no way at all to find any evidence in the rocks on the surface, because any sedimentary structures which may have been formed on the planet in the past are now long gone. The planet resurfaced itself, remember.

In any case, the bulk compositions of both planets (Earth and Venus) are much the same, so it can be reasonably assumed that they formed in the same, or near to same, parts of the solar nebula. From this, it can be reasonably assumed that the water content, hence the D/H ratios, of both planets was fairly similar.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2011, 02:26 PM
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Hmm … well … the distribution of D/H ratios can vary by an order of magnitude (or up to almost two orders) throughout a fairly narrow radial distance. Jupiter is about 2.3 x 10^5, Venus is about 1 x 10^4, Earth 10^2 (or 10^3, depending on what paper ya read ), so there's quite a variance.

I'm not saying the initial formation of the universe resulted in the variance .. but what happened after that, certainly has resulted in considerable differences.

David Grinspoon (the seeming Godfather of exo-planet atmospheric physics), has also written papers questioning the beliefs about Venus having been wet. Admittedly, they're pretty old, but the recent spectroscopic investigations into protoplanetary disks has also shown quite a lot of variances with line of sight molecular column depths and densities. All this gives support to the cometary deposition theories ( … which I don't particularly swallow easily, either).

They've come up with quite a few chemical reactions which can bump up or destroy the deuterium levels in models, also.

The whole thing is very controversial, so some care is required in making definitive statements about the presence or absence of big water (when extrapolating into the past).

Most of these 'constants in physics' quoted in textbooks, can get outdated fairly rapidly during this 'Golden Age' of astrophysics, so gotta keep up with the trends ol' boy !!

Cheers
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2011, 03:06 PM
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Ol' boy!!!!....if I'm old, you must be a fossil

I might go and read what Sara Seager has to say on the matter. She's much better looking than Grinspoon

Anyway, what would an astrobiologist know about exoplanet atmospheres....things might fly in them??!!
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  #26  
Old 06-07-2011, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Ol' boy!!!!....if I'm old, you must be a fossil
Its a state of mind, dude !! Surfin's the source !
… whaaa ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised
Anyway, what would an astrobiologist know about exoplanet atmospheres....things might fly in them??!!
Thought that'd be right down your alley ?
Cheers
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2011, 03:37 PM
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Give me a rock any day....protoplasm's for people who like playing with mucus
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