Uncertain what a carbon tax is

[multiweb (Marc)]

In the end what might work is taxing the products that haven't got the "I'm CO2 friendly" sticker for import or even domestic ones. The tax would be re-injected in local businesses as an incentive. Let's face it, at the end of the day this will be driven by us the consumers and we'll foot the bill regardless but it only seems fair that businesses who do the right thing are given the option to keep a competitive edge when selling. And that would work globally regardless of where the goods are made. BTW did you guys know you have to fork out money to have the "Made in OZ" Roo sticker on your products? I reckon that should be free for anything manufactured here and charge imports to have a compulsory "MADE OVERSEAS" sticker taken off if they want to. Again looking after your own team.

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Let's face it, at the end of the day this will be driven by us the consumers and we'll foot the bill regardless but it only seems fair that businesses who do the right thing are given the option to keep a competitive edge when selling.

Yes to a degree it will but there is still some industries that we have no other options available so the system is not fair without having an available option to turn to.
I would like there to be solar power generator built before implementing such a burden on the public. These are system that cost the most to the environment.
The tax could be best going to pay 50% of the cost toward as hybrid car or something like this.
We all know that won't happen because competition laws will prohibit this.

[AndrewJ]

I just want one simple question answered.

If lower income people are going to be reimbursed "via the collected tax"
to try and keep them happy, what happens in the following scenario?

a) Polluting power industry pays heaps of tax, hence price rises are just passed on till other renewables become cost effective.
b) Everyone builds "renewable" energy plants based on higher prices
(probably using dodgy finance etc to fund the builds )
c) Polluting industries are put out of business

At this point, we are still paying the higher prices,
( as the renewables cant lower their costs )
but we now have no polluting industry to pay tax to allow the
govt to reimburse the poor.
How are the poorer members of society now reimbursed
or do we just accept that we are all getting screwed????

Andrew

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

I would like there to be solar power generator built before implementing such a burden on the public. These are system that cost the most to the environment.
The tax could be best going to pay 50% of the cost toward as hybrid car or something like this.

Manufacturing photo-voltaic cells impacts the environment more than using them reduces the impact. Same for wind generation. Maintenance and manufacture is the killer on the environment.

Hybrid cars? Batteries again. Bad. E10? Takes 3L of crude to refine 1L of E10. Again, it doesn't add up. It's like this movie 'Envy' with Jack Black and ben Stiller. But where does the s||t goes?...

Originally Posted by mswhin63

We all know that won't happen because competition laws will prohibit this.

Then they need to be changed. We need changes at the root of the problem.

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Manufacturing photo-voltaic sells impacts the environment more than using them reduces the impact. Same for wind generation. Maintenance and manufacture is the killer on the environment.

PV units' embedded carbon is "repaid" in 3 years. The cells last at least 20.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Paddy

PV units' embedded carbon is "repaid" in 3 years. The cells last at least 20.

Are you saying that all the energy needed in manufacturing a typical solar panel installation including alu framing and all will offset itself in 3 years by using the product and the panels will still be operating in 20?
Does this also include the energy needed in recycling it. I hear it's nasty stuff. Not really bio-degradable.

[CDKPhil]

What a great discussion.
I would have to agree with Marc.
Here is something to think about, What was the price of fuel ten years ago? around 60c to 70c. What is the price of fuel today? about double and a little bit more depends what state you are in. Now has the consumption of fuel gone up or down? Have people stopped using fuel because of the increasing price? No they have not. People use the same amount of fuel now or more as they did ten years ago. The price of fuel has not effected the consumption. This will be the same for a carbon tax. People have to use a certain amount of energy, consume a certain amount of product and they won't stop using that energy or products because it will change the way they live. We live in a great nation it is a shame we do not have some great leaders (Labor or Liberal or Green) who are strong enough to really do something for it. Not bleed us dry with taxes that will not improve anything, but make our lives even harder.
I could keep going on I won't.

Phil

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Geothermic energy? proposed for the SKA

May end up punching new volcanic holes!

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

NB. The term Government refered in the following is a generic term refering to those charged with developing and implimenting legislation, not the Labor, Green or Liberal et al parties.

What ever your view or if you agree or disagree on this whole climate change-carbon pricing issue, for what ever reason, missguided or not, what else can the Australian government do - really?

For all its puported missgivings, the government and the parliament for some time now (even the former government) has assessed the available evidence on climate change, sought and received suitable advice from both national and international bodies and reputable experts on the ramifications of this evidence in relation to the World and Australia and how to best tackle the issue. It can't look at or even consider such web sites as has been linked to in this thread nor even bow to public opinion on this. To their credit and against significant and what many would describe as missguided, public opinion, the government has made a decission to act on this expert advice instead and in many of the ways recommended to it and is now working toward entirely appropriate legislation to be implimented as soon as possible.

This is really just good governing, I have no idea what all the fuss is about. I find it strange that people can't accept this approach..?

I certainly sleep very easy

Mike

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

NB. The term Government refered in the following is a generic term refering to those charged with developing and implimenting legislation, not the Labor, Green or Liberal et al parties.

What ever your view or if you agree or disagree on this whole climate change-carbon pricing issue, for what ever reason, missguided or not, what else can the Australian government do - really?

Grow a brain for a start and work towards a real solution before taxing us regardless. The carbon tax is like a massive speed camera. It doesn't stop anything. Just makes a s||t load of money for some people.

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

For all its puported missgivings, the government and the parliament for some time now (even the former government) has assessed the available evidence on climate change, sought and received suitable advice from both national and international bodies and reputable experts on the ramifications of this evidence in relation to the World and Australia and how to best tackle the issue.

Wow!... Redirection. Nobody's denying global warming. It's a fact and an excuse for this tax.

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

This is really just good governing, I have no idea what all the fuss is about. I find it strange that people can't accept this approach..?

Good governing... Are we even given the option to accept or not? Are we given a choice or voice in the matter?

[CDKPhil]

Here is a very simple solution to reduce our greenhouse emissions.
Turn off at least half of the street lights and the multi story building lights, freeway lights ect. Australia wide that would have to save some money and pollution. The power companies would not like this but I am sure the astronomy community would love it.

Cheers
Phil

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Good governing... Are we even given the option to accept or not? Are we given a choice or voice in the matter?

Yep, good governing it is and yep we have an election every three years in Australia - it's a great place to live

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Yep, good governing it is and yep we have an election every three years in Australia - it's a great place to live

Well we know how that last one worked out

[CDKPhil]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Yep, good governing it is and yep we have an election every three years in Australia - it's a great place to live

Good government does not sell off all of its public assets!

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Well we know how that last one worked out

Yep, not bad, actually rather refreshing and working quite well

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by CDKPhil

Good government does not sell off all of its public assets!

Or go to the election saying there will never be a carbon tax then plan to put one in place once voted in.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Or go to the election saying there will never be a carbon tax then plan to put one in place once voted in.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

I don't Mike - I don't like the paternalistic approach - I prefer to be consulted on how my dollar is spent.
I don't like Keating's level playing field or Howard's gun free state- I don't like Gillard's non-mandate to procure more tax money to give to families because I still won't get any myself - I have never had a bean from the government -I've only paid taxes and more taxes.
They sell our country and allow foreigners to remove non value added resources from our coffers without so much as a 'by your leave'.

Government imagine that they must improve on the profits to produce an economic model that is driven by oil prices.

Tax? you want to stop cigarettes? - tax them. Tax them another 100% - they're still cheap - cheapest dangerous drug on the market -
Make cocaine legal and tax it.
Fine armed robbers 10,000 dollars per crime.

Tax every imported value added machine 50% Give 25% to the exporters.
All land previously sold to foreign nationals is now lease hold.... 50 years and it reverts to crown and you pay a lease on it from now til then.
Make phone calls from anywhere abroad taxable at a dollar a call....
Tax all work done outside the country by Australian owned companies.
That stops all our jobs going abroad as well.
Fine companies that engage foreign workers when local can be found.

We don't need nice foreign relations - we're self sufficient.

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Are you saying that all the energy needed in manufacturing a typical solar panel installation including alu framing and all will offset itself in 3 years by using the product and the panels will still be operating in 20?
Does this also include the energy needed in recycling it. I hear it's nasty stuff. Not really bio-degradable.

That's my understanding and fits with my own experience. The second hand panels that we put on our house 14 years ago are still going strong. They do become a bit less efficient over time, but they still produce quite a lot of power with no maintenance. Don't know about recycling them as I've always understood that they will stay on the roof and keep supplying us with power.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Yep - those two smilies pretty much summarize what the powers in charge right now do during the day. Thanks for enlighteningus Mike.